M1/M2 C&R's

[mnshooter]

A recent gun show had an Inland "M2 C&R carbine" priced at $8000. The receiver had a very clear M1, with no trace of a 2 overstamp.

The form 4 had the gun listed as an C&R M2 carbine, even though this doesn't seem to follow the "originally marked M2" requirement for C&R.

Would this contradition cause any problem in a subsequent C&R transfer?

[wwl]

MNshooter----Inasmuch as Minnesota law states that a MG must be on the ATFE C & R list to be legal in MN, it would seem to me that the gun you describe could put you in violation of MN law. Even if you get it passed the ATFE examiner and get it transfered to you, I'm not sure that gives you any protection in the event that it comes to the attention of the ATFE who sayes its not a C&R gun. I think this is why the M2 Carbine can be troublesome in MN.

[emmagee1917]

A good question that I do not believe has ever come up. I don't have an answer for you , but a few questions that might help others answer you.

1) It does say M2 in space "D" of firearm discription?

2) Does he have any FOIA paperwork that shows 1st paper to be anything other than a Form 1 ?

3) What is the date on the first form ? ( C&R guys , if that's more than 50 years ago , does it make it a C&R ? )

 

If it says M2 in space d , that may be correct , I'm not sure. All mine say M1 , but all mine are form1s , not 4s , and they were m1s when I applied.

If , however , he does not have a FOIA showing it went from , say , Inland or Winchester to a police department or factory plant directly , he has only a reciever converted M1 and is priced way too high for that.

Chris

[mnshooter]

I wish I had been able to get more information.

He was sitting at a table with an FFL dealer who had multiple tables of non NFA, not just walking around with the gun, and he did have the form 4. After some casual discussion about the M1 marking, I asked if I could write down some of the information on the form 4 and think it over. He promptly folded up the form 4, saying, "I'd rather you didn't if you're not buying it."

That was enough for me, so I kept walking. Haven't seen him since.

[wwl]

MNshooter----I think that was a good gun to walk from. A. carbine marked M2 from the factory will be a Winchester [17,000 made] or Inland [250,000]made & will be a lot more difficult to locate. But a good find when you locate one.

[wwl]

MNshooter----Be especially careful of Inland Carbines where the paperwork says M2 But are in reality M1s overstamped M2. I believe you would still be in violation of MN law should MN law enforcement ever become involved. Inland was still making M1s when the order came to commence M2 production. They simply continued with the same serial # sequence so we can also determine a legitimet M2 by serial #. I am away from my carbine reference books so cannot give you that serial # for this report. I think MN is the last C&R state but this issue is important to C&R license holders. Incidently I have a Inland M2 and its one of my favorite MGs to shoot. Good luck on your hunt.

[nirvana]

There is a gray area, at least to me, with M1 conversions that were amnestied registered. It seems as though they should be C&R, as they may well have been original GI converted guns that were not M2 marked, the same way that the CMP apparently sold M2 guns built as M1s. There is no real way of telling who did the conversion and when, only that is was done before 1968. While it shouldn't matter once the year 2018 rolls around, and they will all be 50 yrs old in the M2 configuration, it is sorta confusing as to what to call them.

 

It should get a little more interesting in the next 20 years when a lot of guns will meet the 50 yr old requirement.... I wonder how the ATF will approach this.

[wwl]

Nirvana---I agree with you that 2018 will be interesting as to carbines. But, its my understanding that guns do not go on the C&R list simply because they are 50 years old. Someone has to make application to the ATFE and they research the mater & then render a decision. Assuming that we are after 2018, would the way to tell a C&R gun would be the mfg on the registration form would be one of the original carbine manufacturers as opposed to the manufacture be ie: Jones Guns, or some other mfg? Maybe this would apply to all amnesty registered guns.

[nirvana]

I think 50 is the rule, all other qualifiers aside. Its gonna get real interesting when Polytech AK's become C&R, which will happen unless the ATF changes their rules....

 

From the ATF website....

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

 

 

Q: Does my weapon qualify as a curio or relic (C&R)?

 

For your information, a regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those"which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

 

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

 

Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

 

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories ( or © above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

 

If you desire an evaluation, ship the firearm to FTB via FedEx, UPS, or other common carrier. You must also include your carrier’s account information or a return postage label for the return of the item. Please submit any supplemental documentation such as value appraisals or curator letters that may denote the firearm as a collector’s item. The weapon would be returned with a letter detailing our examination and stating FTB’s findings concerning the weapon’s classification as a C&R firearm.

 

Address the parcel to:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives

Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA

 

Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm and you desire removal from the NFA status (e.g., Winchester Trappers), you must submit it to FTB for evaluation and a formal classification.

 

[mnshooter]

The words "...and in it's original configuration..." would seem to rule out any amnesty conversions that are orginally marked M1. Even with a 2 overstamp, it's still not the original configuration as manufactured. The same would seem to eventually apply to the registered (originally semi-auto) Uzi conversions, AK's, etc.

 

Then again, maybe the examiners in 2018 will be giving everyone the benefit of doubt. Sounds reasonable to me.

Edited September 19, 2011 by mnshooter

[nirvana]

The words "...and in it's original configuration..." would seem to rule out any amnesty conversions that are orginally marked M1. Even with a 2 overstamp, it's still not the original configuration as manufactured. The same would seem to eventually apply to the registered (originally semi-auto) Uzi conversions, AK's, etc.

 

Then again, maybe the examiners in 2018 will be giving everyone the benefit of doubt. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

That wording has created lots of issues. People that are into C&R stuff generally consider it to mean "non-sporterized". As in, a 1903a3 Springfield with full wood stock and so on is C&R, while a blued and jeweled gun in a custom stock with a new .338 lapua magnum barrel is not. The gray area, again, is minor features. Most people consider original guns with reproduction "period accurate" scope mounts (like the Soviet PU Mosin Nagant Snipers that are everywhere) to be C&R, while guns with non-period and obviously sporter mounts would not be C&R.

 

I am not sure where the M2 conversion carbine would fit into that...

[MG08]

Hi guys - just thought I would pass on some information. There are a lot of "M1" marked M2 carbines that are C&R. Particularly here in MN. these guns were converted by Minneapolis PD in the early 60s, and amnesty registered during the 68. amnesty period. in the early 70s, the guns were replaced by M16s, and the M1/M2s were sold to individual officers. ( I was told about 20 of them) These are considered to be C&R. I have transferred several of these in and out of the state for people. Some more than once. Since the US govt made a lot of M1s into M2s many more that were amnesty registered are also in this category.

On the otherhand, therer area lot of M2 marked guns that RIA (Geneseo IL) made up and sold prior to 1986, that are not C&R. You do have to be careful.

[mnshooter]

If those Minneapolis PD M1/2's have an ATF letter listing them as C&R's, that would be definitive.

Otherwise the words: "originally marked M2" do not leave much room for interpretation.

Without an ATF letter, the fact that they transfered as C&R at one time does not guarantee

they could pass a closer look at the paperwork on a future transfer. The transfer could still be valid,

but possession as a C&R in the great state of Minnesota would be void. I think.

I believe I saw a half dozen of those at a pre-86 Minnesota Weapons Collectors show.

I recall the price as $750 each. Seemed like a lot.

[emmagee1917]

Another question along this line.

When ( if ) the M2 was built from a M1 on a form 1 ( or other ) , does that not create a "new" birth date because it was made then into a new configuration ( firearm ).

Therefore , when the 50th anniversary of the conversion rolls around , would it not then be a C&R ? If it was still in the original converted configuration , that is.

Chris