Greetings, Interested in BM59s

[boeboe]

Just wanted to be the first to post on this board, I am accumulating information on the BM59, please post what you know about them. I'm interested in buying BM59 semi-auto varieites as funds permit.

[MRJ]

Boe boe:

 

Perhaps we will see a bit more posting on this board. BM-59's get little coverage (if any) on Italian Rifle Boards, M14 Boards, etc. I am in the process of compiling some info on the Beretta BM-62 as imported by the Berben Corp for Beretta in the early '80s. These are the rifles marked

"P. BERETTA MADE IN ITALY 00XXXX" on the receiver heel. These rifles feature:

 

New stock with fingergrooves and no full auto cutouts

Hard blackrubber buttplate (no butt trap)

Short undrilled muzzle "brake" with no bayonet lug or grenade spring groove

Gas cylinder not machined for bipod or gas spindle valve

 

I believe these rifles were shipped with one 20rd magazine and no sling, 6mm gas cylinder plug wrench, or operator's manual. I try to post some more info soon on this particular BM-59 variant.

 

BTW - Were you able to return that Nat Ord 59 receiver you posted about on the old board ?

 

 

 

[boeboe]

Hey MRJ,

 

Good to see you're still around! Yes, I returned the National Ordnance receiver, got my money back. It was so worn, the bolt had wore a hole in the top of the receiver, under the sight cover. I don't think I have ever seen a receiver as worn as that one.

 

Yes, information on the BM59 and varieties is just so elusive, I would like to accumulate as much information as I can and eventually get an information page together on them. I have registered the domain name BM59.com, but of course it is not operational yet. I hope to be able to just have it as an information page, with photos of different BM59 varieties and information on them. Hopefully, I will be able to get people to submit good photos of their BM59/62/69 with any information they have.

 

One of the interesting discrepancies I am trying to resolve is the Santa Fe BM59s, as far as I can tell, there were actually two very different variations of this rifle. One variation Santa Fe/Golden State apparently built was on a rewelded receiver, of course you know the reputation of the rewelds (although I think most are probably fine). The other Santa Fe was marked "Licensed by P. Beretta Gardone Italy Santa Fe M-59 Cal 7.62MM Nato Golden State Arms Corp. Pasadena Calif." and was apparently built under license from Beretta. The rewelds were not marked like that, from what I have seen. These Beretta licensed BM59 are suppose to be very nice rifles, from what some of the old timers are telling me.

 

There are lots of questions I have, such as why is it some of the Springfield Armory BM59's just marked "Springfield Armory" on the receiver heal, and others are marked "P. Beretta Gardone Italy" on the heal, and "Springfield Armory" on the left side of the receiver. Is there a difference in these receivers (as, is the Beretta marked receiver built on a Beretta forging, and the other not?).

 

I've also talked to one guy, very knowedgable, who said the original BM59's imported back in the '60s (before they were ban) were such that the grenade launcher/flash hider actually was about the size of a pop can. I'd like some information on those very early imports as well.

 

As well as the Berben and Benet imports, of course. There are just so many varieties, and so little information. Any information you can provide will be MUCH appreciated.

[MRJ]

Boe boe:

 

BM-59/62 receivers that were completed by Beretta and imported by Springfield Armory are marked on the receiver heel:

 

P.BERETTA 7.62mm BM 59 [or 62] Gardone V.T. Italia 0000XXX*

 

On the left side of the receiver:

 

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY GENESEO IL USA

 

Forgings not completed by Beretta prior to sale to Springfield Armory are marked on the heel:

 

7.62mm BM 59 SPRINGFIELD ARMORY @ 0000XXX

 

These receivers are not marked on the left side.

 

*- Possibly full auto rifles are numbered with an "X" as the first digit of the serial number. I'm not sure of the significance of the "59" or "62" designation unless the 59 indicates full auto and the 62 semi-auto. I believe there may also full auto 59"s heeel marked for Rock Island Armory.

 

Hopefully there may be interest for a BM-59 survey in the future.

 

MRJ

[acgeorge]

I have one of the "Licensed by P. Beretta Gardone Italy Santa Fe M-59 Cal 7.62MM Nato Golden State Arms Corp. Pasadena Calif." Here are some pics

 

 

http://www.hunt101.com/img/053420.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/053416.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/053421.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/053423.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/053414.jpg

 

I currently have it up for auction. Need to raise funds for another purchase.

 

Andy

[boeboe]

acgeorge, thanks for the interesting pics. I've saved them in my files. Do you have any photos of licensing stamping? Also, can you tell if yours is a reweld or not?

[acgeorge]

I have examined it thouroghly, and can't find a sign of weld. I wish I could have it x-rayed, to know for sure. The licensing stamp is in the first pic. I'll take another close up and post it.

 

http://www.hunt101.com/img/054741.jpg

 

http://www.hunt101.com/img/054741.jpg

[MRJ]

acgeorge-

 

Does this receiver have a drawing number stamped on the right front below the op rod groove? Such a number would help in id'ing receiver.

 

Please let us know and thanks for posting the pics.

 

MRJ

[boeboe]

MRJ, here's an interesting version, appears to be built up from a Santa Fe receiver and M14 parts. What do you know about the difference in gas tubes between the different varieties? Some are close to barrel, others (such as RSI and Springfield) always have the gas tube parallel with, and spaced away from the narrel. Is that any clue as to desireability?

 

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayi...ItemNum=4561690

 

[MRJ]

Boeboe:

 

There seem to be four types of gas cylinders used in BM59's and BM59 clones:

 

M1 gas cylinder used in Beretta BM59E's (sometimes called"SL" model) and

in the Golden State/Santa Fe rifles. The distance between the barrel OD and gas tube OD is about 1/16".

 

Beretta gas cylinder as used in many BM59's with grenade launcher gas valve and milled gas tube for bipod mounting. The distance between the barrel OD and gas tube OD is about 1/4".

 

Beretta gas cylinder with no grenade launcher gas valve but has the milled area for bipod mounting is used on Beretta BM69.

 

Beretta gas cylinder with no grenade laucher gas valve or milled area for bipod mounting is used on Beretta BM62.

 

I would guess that cost savings and parts availability led to Golden State/Santa Fe reusing M1 gas cylinders and operating rods in their rifles.

The Beretta BM59 gas cylinder allows for a straighter operating rod and the use of a valve in the gas port for grenade launching.

 

As for the M14/BM59 hybrid on auction arms, I wonder if it was necesary to modify the M1 bolt to work with the M14 op rod ? Neat looking and very unique.

 

MRJ

[boeboe]

acgeorge, from what I have been able to figure out, it looks like your Santa Fe is one of the "good ones". I showed the markings to an old class 3 dealer who had one several years ago. He had praised the Santa Fe he had back then. He indicates the photos of yours is how his was marked.

[mikebaker1129]

 

MRJ ,

I have one of the Bm62 that you speak of . What would you like to know about it? You are correct in that the stock has no cutout for the full auto connector as mostBM59 stocks do .You are also correvt in the rubber buttpad is a plain black rubber pad with no markings and no flip out for the cleaning kit . It is about 1/2" thick. For some reason the stock on mine does not seem as well done as the earlier ones . Mine was purchased used with 5 magazines ,1tricompesator(with bayonet lug) and the short straight muzzle device you speak of (with no holes drilled in it . The parts kit that I ordered from SARCO came with one that had holes drilled in it like a muzzle brake . I hope this helps ? Mike

[MRJ]

Mike:

 

Thanks - just looking for any variations from a "standard" Berben Corp imported BM62. Possibily a few of these rifles were shipped with ventilated butt pads instead of the solid rubber pad.

 

MRJ

[Van163]

I recently picked up a Santa Fe/Golden State Arms BM-59, Licensed by Beretta. It would appear the barrel is a 2 land and groove design similar to a Remington 03-A3. The butt of the weapon has a M-14 style 2 position butt plate and the barrel/action was glass bedded into the stock. The receiver is a M-1 in the 2 million range ser# with the original manufacturer ground off. The rifle is in about 98% condition and closely resembles the pictures above. It shoots well and has no problem feeding with the original magazine that came with it, but I have problems similar to those described in a previous post with the magazines I purchased from Gun Parts Corp/Numerich Arms.

[RDS]

Santa Fe / Golden State used demilled m-1 rec. and demilled m-1 barrels. The breach end of a m-1 barrel was bored out and a turned down two groove 03A3 barrel was inserted and welded. The seam is at the stepped down part of the m-1 section. The internals are also differant from the BM-59. Sante Fe used a differant recoil system and front mag catch. At one time Sarco had a supply of these parts. They have a few built up rifles of this type. As far as Sarco kits they are the same kits that were on the market about 6ys ago sold by Ed Faust in Ca. I believe the kits came from Morocco. Sarco suppied the rec. wrenches and barrel blocks used to dismantle the rifles. For some reason the did not get the kits at that time except of a few samples.

[Van163]

OK, now the question is, is it safe to shoot? I have shot it previously without problem but is it subject to fail in a catastrophic manner?

[MRJ]

Van163:

 

Jerry Kuhnhausen covers this issue on page 365 of his bookThe U.S. .30 Caliber Gas Operated Service Rifles. He states that these 1903A3 barrels mated to the breech end of an M1 barrel could bulge and rupture.

 

Suggest you confirm that you indeed have one of these barrels. Supposedly the silver soldier joint where the barrel segments are put together is visible.

 

 

MRJ

[RDS]

The US military never used a two groove M-1 or M-14 barrel. All were std four groove. Pull back the op rod and check to see if the barrel stub has a drawing number stamped on the side along with manf. date and code of maker. If it has these marks it is a two piece barrel made from a demilled M1 barrel and a turned down O3A3 barrel. You can check the rec the same way as the front of the rec. on the right side below the wood line has a drawing number and a heat lot number. The drawing numbers and heat lot numbers correspond to maker and serial number. Santa Fe used welded rec. that had the rec. tangs wiped clean except for the serial number. On these rec. the serial number and drawing number and heat lot number will not be in the correct range and maybe even of different makers. Beretta never used two groove barrels or welded rec. It did use US military barrels that were shorten in the chamber end, rethreaded and chambered in 7.62 Nato. They also used US military M-1 rec by milling the inside to accept a mag. They offer to convert M-1 for other nations this way. Sarco's kit are from conversions.

[Van163]

OK, gang I have taken the rifle apart and looked at it closely, the barrel appears to be a one piece unit, that is there is no silver solder visible, the only markings seen on the barrel when the bolt is retracted is a "A" in a canted position. The stepped portion of the barrel appears to be congruent and matching with the rest of the barrel. The only markings on the receiver under the wood is a "B & B" with a small diamond to the immediate right.

It would appear the receiver is a reweld, but they seem to have done a nice job on it. I think I will take it to my local gunsmith for his evaluation.

 

Thanks for the heads-up