Pair of 28 Commercial Savages

[TD.]

The first contract for 10,000 guns between AOC and Savage Arms was executed on December 15, 1939. Prior to signing on the dotted line, there was no legal agreement for either party to do anything regarding the manufacture of the Thompson gun. Certainly, preliminary talks and due diligence was performed by both parties prior to the execution of the contract. Savage Arms was wary of J. Russell Maguire, so much so the first contract dictated Savage Arms would be paid in full for the manufacture of 10,000 Thompson gun after 5000 guns were completed. Maguire had no buyers or pending contracts for any of these future Savage Arms Thompson guns when the contract was executed. Actually, AOC still had at least 600 Colt's in inventory when the contract was executed on December 15, 1939. While hindsight makes Maguire's decision making process a no brainer, I have always given Maguire credit for his fore sight - and putting his own money on the line for this venture. He was "all in" as they say in other venues.

 

500 of the 600 Colt's guns were sold to the Swedish government on January 26, 1940. These 500 guns would have to be converted from 1921's to 1928's prior to shipment.

 

The first British order was approved on February 1, 1940. This order was only for 750 guns. My book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, lays out the subsequent orders, deliveries and sales after the first order of 750 guns. Excellent reading if I do say so myself. And well documented.

 

All good stuff!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

My book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, lays out the subsequent orders, deliveries and sales after the first order of 750 guns. Excellent reading if I do say so myself. And well documented.

 

Does the author of "The Tommy Gun Story" have a guesstimate on the total number of Savage TSMGs that were originally fitted with Colt parts at the Utica, N.Y. factory?

[TD.]

Arthur,

I do not have a number for you. But I believe any number would be extremely low for production guns after the first few hundred guns were delivered. One exception I would entertain is the wood. AOC employee(s) at the Savage Arms factory would have direct access to any Colt's era parts owned outright by AOC. I believe it possible some of the earliest Savage Thompsons sold commercially by AOC may have been spruced up a bit with left over Colt's wood prior to shipment. The first and only AOC employee at the Savage factory during at the beginning of production was George Goll. He certainly understood the Thompson gun from a sales perspective, especially the look. This is my guesstimate for you.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

I do not have a number for you. But I believe any number would be extremely low for production guns after the first few hundred guns were delivered.

 

Ok. But you did say the following:

TD., on 17 Jan 2018 - 09:00, said:

 

I would guess any bright parts found in the frames of firearm's several 18,000 serial number range Thompson are "S" or Savage Arms marked. Actually, I would expect all the internal parts to be marked with the round "S" marking regardless of color

When you say "all" that means any Colt parts found in any Savage TSMGs after the first "few hundred" were not installed by Savage factory workers. Since you limited the possibility of Savage factory installed Colt parts above 17,000 serial numbers, you have revised that to allow for the first 2500 Savages off the production line? Just to be clear, Savages in the 16,000-18,000 serial numbers that have been reported to have Colt parts in them are anomalies in your estimation?

 

When you researched the 1928A Savage No. S- 17359 for the SAR article did you examine the internal parts, including the ejector, to see if there were any Colt parts?

 

Board member 765 21D reported that his S-183XX has a Colt ejector, Colt bolt and Colt Blish lock.

 

S - 15795 is in the UK as reported by Alan David and has apparently not been taken apart to determine the origin of the parts.

 

giantpanda4 has S-15043. Do not know if he reported the origin of the internals.

 

Bug's S-16868 internal parts that resembled Colt parts turned out to have the Savage "S" on them. Bug did not remove his one-piece machined flat ejector to determine if there is an "S" stamp. Bug's barrel doesn't have a drawline.

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

My comments about Colt's era parts in early Savage Thompson guns is not designed to state unequivocally what happened. Its purpose is to question those in the past who have stated as fact Savage Arms used Colt's parts in the manufacture of early Savage Arms Thompson submachine guns. I simply do not accept this as fact because I have seen nothing that indicates this is true. What I do know from years of collecting information about early Savage Thompson guns is there do not appear to be enough original guns left to make this determination. Of course, enthusiasts are welcome to believe what they want.

 

I have no doubt AOC had an inventory of spare parts along with new and used Thompson guns when the contract was signed with Savage Arms in December 1939. There is also no doubt Savage Arms was furnished all the drawings, blueprints, gages, jigs, machinery etc. that would aide them in getting the Thompson gun in production. I would guess a complete Colt's NAVY Thompson and a small number of individual spare parts were furnished to aide Savage Arms in the start up. George Goll was present at the Savage factory during this time. However, to think AOC provided Savage Arms with hundreds or thousands of spare parts of any one item is beyond comprehension. AOC was still receiving orders for spare parts. The spares in AOC inventory would have been used to fill these orders. Russell Maguire appreciated profits; that is something everyone can agree with. When the AOC inventory was exhausted, AOC would have then have turned to Savage Arms to purchase individual parts at wholesale to sell at retail. Subcontractor Savage Arms did not sell anything to anyone but AOC. I just do not see AOC providing Savage Arms 1000 milled ejectors to be used on the first 1000 guns and then have to turn around and purchase 1000 extra or spare ejectors at wholesale to sell at retail. Feel free to substitute ejectors with any spare part.

 

I would accept the premise that Savage Arms may have used Colt's parts in the first month of production of 201 guns (April 1940) - if necessary. 180 of these first 201 guns where shipped to Great Britain. That was a very important contract for AOC. I have no doubt George Goll would have released whatever Colt's parts were necessary to speed up this delivery - again, if necessary. Unfortunately, none of these first 201 guns seemed to have survived in original condition for an inspection to occur. Perhaps one will turn up one day and we can add to this story. Of note, the first 180 Savage Arms manufactured guns shipped to Great Britain were fitted with horizontal fore grips. The British wanted vertical fore grips but agreed to accept horizontal fore grips for this first shipment. AOC should have been awash in "take-off" vertical fore grips with the recent 951 gun US Army order and 500 gun Swedish order. Why not install these Colt's vertical fore grips on these 180 Savage Thompsons. I can't answer that except to say it likely these take off grips were probably not present at the Utica factory in April. If that is the case, it stands to reason that the bulk of any left over AOC spare parts were still at Colt's and moved to Savage Arms as the AOC space at Colt's was vacated. It has been documented "about 40 second-hand guns" were reconditioned and provided to the British as part of a penalty. See page 23 of GB-TTGS for the disposition of what is likely the last Colt's guns in AOC inventory. Did the recondition process take place at Savage Arms. I don't know, but that seems the likely place.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

My comments about Colt's era parts in early Savage Thompson guns is not designed to state unequivocally what happened. Its purpose is to question those in the past who have stated as fact Savage Arms used Colt's parts in the manufacture of early Savage Arms Thompson submachine guns.

 

I stands to reason that the bulk of any left over AOC spare parts were still at Colt's and moved to Savage Arms as the AOC space at Colt's was vacated.

 

Good to know raising questions regarding conclusions stated as fact in authoritative materials is not considered trolling.

 

But why is Harold still holding on to Colt TSMG machinery seven months after AOC last order for spare parts and after Maguire purchased AOC from Marcellus Thompson? Why would Harold devote Colt Fire Arm factory space to machinery that no longer produced income for Colt? And why would Maguire want to continue to pay for storage space at Colt after his November, 1939 contract with Savage to produce 10,000 TSMGs necessitated that Savage be in possession of the 20 year-old Colt machinery?

 

But regarding 1928A Savage No. S- 17359, did you travel to the U.K. to examine this Savage or did you rely on Clive McPherson to take whatever photos the British museum would allow? Disassembling the frame and removing the ejector was probably frowned on by the curator.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

Good to know raising questions regarding conclusions stated as fact in authoritative materials is not considered trolling. ​Trolling is when you post untrue historical information that is readily available for any RKI that purports to know about the Thompson gun, to wit:

 

But why is Harold still holding on to Colt TSMG machinery seven months after AOC last order for spare parts and after Maguire purchased AOC from Marcellus Thompson? ​The last order to Colt's from AOC based on the November 28, 1939 letter you cited above is 11/21/1939. 7 months? Really? Why would Harold devote Colt Fire Arm factory space to machinery that no longer produced income for Colt? ​See above sentence by me. It appears Colt's was still making money from AOC less than a month before the December 15, 1939 contract between Savage Arms and AOC was executed. And why would Maguire want to continue to pay for storage space at Colt after his November, 1939 contract with Savage to produce 10,000 TSMGs necessitated that Savage be in possession of the 20 year-old Colt machinery? ​Again, the contract between Savage Arms and AOC was executed on December 15, 1939. While I do not know anything about the Colt's & AOC lease arrangements, I would assume AOC started to vacate the Colt's space when the 500 Swedish Colt's were shipped in early to mid-February 1940. I do know George Goll left Colt's for Utica shortly after the contract was executed.

 

But regarding 1928A Savage No. S- 17359, did you travel to the U.K. to examine this Savage or did you rely on Clive McPherson to take whatever photos the British museum would allow? Disassembling the frame and removing the ejector was probably frowned on by the curator. ​No travel for me. I did not ask for the frame to be disassembled or the ejector to be removed. The lack of a compensator and ring front sight was my main interest during my correspondence with Clive.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

But why is Harold still holding on to Colt TSMG machinery seven months after AOC last order for spare parts and after Maguire purchased AOC from Marcellus Thompson? ​The last order to Colt's from AOC based on the November 28, 1939 letter you cited above is 11/21/1939.

Interesting you neglected to mention that the November order was for XX box magazines, not TSMG internal spare parts. Are you saying Maguire was waiting for Colt to complete the November order for XX box magazines before he could move the machines to Utica, N.Y? Even accounting for that November magazine order delay, it was still over two months before the equipment arrived at the Utica plant. Did Savage use that equipment to make their own xxrd magazines?

 

Your curiosity about Savage S- 17359 didn't extend beyond the lack of a Cutts Compensator? Ok. Then we cannot eliminate the possibility it my have Colt internal parts.

[TD.]

I did not neglect to mention anything. All Board members can read the published letter in American Thunder III. Page 94 & 95. Old news.

 

 

[firearm]

Scan0026.pdfWow! I filed a FOIA request on S18565 and S18741 on 3-30-2018 and just got this back. Too bad they aren't processing form 4's that quick. In any case you can see that the SD, Cameron County Texas SD in this case filed a form 1 to registered both weapons on 12-14-1960. Note that the Sheriff stated that these two weapons had been in their inventory " More than 15 years ago " on the form. On my form 5, it shows the manufacturer's name as "Savage Arms". A little subtraction and that puts you around the 1940 mark. The Sheriff's name is blacked out but a little footwork tomorrow should give me that. Maybe he is still around. We will see. Now the only part of the puzzle that is missing is the name of the company that they purchased them from. Federal Laboratories?

[TD.]

Great information. Thanks for posting.

 

Federal Laboratories would not have been involved with the sale of these early Savage Thompsons to the Cameron County Sheriff's Department. When Russell Maguire took control of Auto-Ordnance Corporation in July 1939, one of his first actions was to terminate the AOC exclusive sales agreement with Federal Laboratories. See page 279 in TUTB. These two Savage Thompsons were manufactured in 1940 and sold directly by Auto-Odnance.

 

In reviewing many FOIA packets for early Savage Thompsons I have found what looks to be a computer print-out of a "Weapon History Report" showing a "Status Date" in the "History Detail" section that indicates when the weapon was originally entered on the NFA Registry. There will be some redactions in this documentation but normally the date and first IRS form type are unredacted.

 

All good stuff!

 

 

[firearm]

Found out who the Sheriff was in 1960 when these docs were signed. Sheriff Boyden Fleming. Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.