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Danger of Paypal Gift to sellers


huggytree
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Just wanted to warn all of you who believe paypal gift is safe for sellers...its not

 

Sold some mags on GB As Is. Buyer paid with paypal Gift. Buyer wasnt happy, asked for some extra $$ or a refund. I refused. He sent back the mags w/o my permission. I refunded his money minus the $15 shipping to move on.

Suddenly i notice my paypal account is -$145
I can not remove my bank account info or change it. my banking is locked
I call them, they tell me there is not a case against me officially, but the buyer has claimed CC fraud, that i charged his card Illegally. 30 days goes bye. never once has paypal alerted me to a case against me or asked me for any information.

Today i get a collections letter in the mail from a collections agency. I find myself trying to fight through a collector(not paypal) my case.

Do not use paypal gift unless you know the buyer. You are not as safe as you think.

 

 

PS- resold the mags for $10 more and got a A+ rating from new buyer!!!!!

Edited by huggytree
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Thank you for your patience.





I checked and see that the case was filed by the buyer with his bank for an unauthorized transaction and the bank closed the case in buyers favor, and the payment sent to you was sent as personal payment, so personal payments will not be covered under sellers protection.





Hence we debited your account for the payment you received








Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:04 PM


The case was closed in buyers favor as the payment was sent as personal payment and you are not covered under sellers protection for personal payments.







dt



03:05 PM


so any buyer can do this....no evidence needed







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:05 PM


So by default the buyer wins and in your case the buyer disputed with his bank so we do not have any authority over the decision made the bank.







dt



03:05 PM


i clearly can show endless evidence..yet none was asked from me





if you have no authority why are you going against me?





you take sides







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:07 PM


The case was filed by the buyer with their bank and the bank has closed the case in buyers favor, as the buyer filed the dispute as unauthorized transaction.







dt



03:08 PM


so again....i can dispute any seller....and i will win 100%







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:08 PM


We cannot provide refund to you now, because the payment was sent as personal payment.













dt



03:11 PM


ive paid the seller THROUGH YOUR SERVICE...you can see this correct?





so what if the buyer never tells you he has been paid?





some buyers are bad people...how do you solve this issue?





what if i pay the buyer again





?





but not through you







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:13 PM


We do take a valid evidence which shows that the buyers claim is genuine. Please read PayPal legal terms for seller protection.







dt



03:13 PM


do you see the evidence i refunded him?





you ruled in favor of him w/ no evidence from me







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:13 PM


Yes, you have refunded the payment, but it was made as personal payment.





You can only dispute a goods and service payment.







dt



03:14 PM


if i refunded the payment why cant we close this?







Py


Prabhu Swamy

03:15 PM


You refunded as personal payment and you will not be covered under seller protection for personal payments.












Edited by huggytree
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And now you know why I will only accept USPS money orders for payment for GB sales, yes, it takes longer but you will not run into problems like this. If for any reason they want a refund, the funds are sent to them as a USPS money order same as I received. It prevents third parties that I have no control over from dipping into my bank account.

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just a buyer on GB

 

you Think your protected with the gift part of PayPal. Actually your less protected

 

Anyone can do this to you

 

I gave the guy a neg review now on G.B. I full get one in return Im sure

 

The guy wrote me endless emails. He was having conversations w me in his head. Arguing things with himself. Pages of emails.

Edited by huggytree
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Keep in mind that a gift payment is simply that. Using a gift payment skirts PayPal fees and therefore offers no protection as they are not to be used for purchases.

 

Another trick that was played against me is even if you have your eBay auction listed as no returns they buyer can still return an they will refund.

 

At the end of the day 99.99% transactions go off without a hitch.

 

Ron

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If you would have paid the transaction fee to PayPal, you would have recourse,as a seller.

 

I buy non-gun related items such as tools on EBay and always pay the PayPal fee

 

I avoid PayPal for anything gun related. They locked up both my account and seller’s over a flash hider. It was legal in both states ( Texas and North Carolina) so PP eventually backed down and unlocked tboth accounts.

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Honestly I think you should have just credited the full amount instead of deducting $15 and sending as a gift. I looked at your original 40 rd uzi mag ad and it listed them "nice shape most look unused" and they did have dents. Not ragging on you but saving $15 or not taking the time to point out flaws is a lesson learned. I've dealt with people that were hard to deal with using pp. One guy locked mine down for $1700+ because ups broke it and he refused insurance. I told him just to send it back when he tried to shake me down for a few hundred. Finally he dropped the case.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796590064

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Keep in mind that a gift payment is simply that. Using a gift payment skirts PayPal fees and therefore offers no protection as they are not to be used for purchases.

 

Another trick that was played against me is even if you have your eBay auction listed as no returns they buyer can still return an they will refund.

 

At the end of the day 99.99% transactions go off without a hitch.

 

Ron

They actually offer full protection for the buyer

They are outright brutal on the seller as they agree I refunded him, yet wont remove my -$145. Even if I settle with the owner on the side I will always owe the $145 to them. Im locked in a box I cant get out of. Not without paying twice now.

 

I regret giving him anything as I told him no refund, yet he shipped it back anyways. I believe he started the fraud charge before I refunded him. So giving him $145 full refund would just mean I would be out another $15

 

As for the description. If i listed every mark on the mag or any item I would never sell anything. When Ruben or frank sells a $40,000 gun do they list every mark on the gun? No. They take pictures. Which I did. Every dent/ mark on those mags are clearly visible.

 

The buyer I believe wanted a partial refund and might have been a scammer from the start

 

Listing every flaw is a double edged sword.

Edited by huggytree
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Keep in mind that a gift payment is simply that. Using a gift payment skirts PayPal fees and therefore offers no protection as they are not to be used for purchases.

 

Another trick that was played against me is even if you have your eBay auction listed as no returns they buyer can still return an they will refund.

 

At the end of the day 99.99% transactions go off without a hitch.

 

Ron

They actually offer full protection for the buyer

They are outright brutal on the seller as they agree I refunded him, yet wont remove my -$145. Even if I settle with the owner on the side I will always owe the $145 to them. Im locked in a box I cant get out of. Not without paying twice now.

 

I regret giving him anything as I told him no refund, yet he shipped it back anyways. I believe he started the fraud charge before I refunded him. So giving him $145 full refund would just mean I would be out another $15

 

As for the description. If i listed every mark on the mag or any item I would never sell anything. When Ruben or frank sells a $40,000 gun do they list every mark on the gun? No. They take pictures. Which I did. Every dent/ mark on those mags are clearly visible.

 

The buyer I believe wanted a partial refund and might have been a scammer from the start

 

Listing every flaw is a double edged sword.

I've actually sold more by listing every flaw than without. I generally get an A+ better than described. If I don't get that I still get an A+ and something else. Probably half the people are using a phone to bid so it's hard to see the dings. A proper short description would have been. Like new with slight scuffs dings ask for more pictures if needed before bidding.

 

1. You didn't accurately describe in my opinion.

2. You used pp for an item they don't allow.

3. You decided to keep what you wanted for your troubles.

4. You gifted the partial refund.

 

As soon as I emailed the guy offering a full refund including shipping both ways and he declined, PP unlocked my account. Not saying your guy isn't a jerk or it's all on you. However you need to follow their rules and list to the best of your abilities to have a leg to stand on. Buying a $26 mag and a 40k gun are different leagues as well. People generally take an A+ guy at his word on a $26 mag. 40k gun gets a few emails/phone calls back and forth.

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If someone is not happy, i offer a full refund and send them an American flag pin for the trouble. Saves money issues of course and negative feedback which can be worse. Amazon sells these pins by the hundred lot.

Eric

 

 

 

1.JPG

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All I can say is F PP

 

I was a long time Ebay/PP used with 100% rating on both - a guy bought a NOS in the box $300 hi-perf drag car part off my a few years ago - LOTS of pics in ad, it was unopened in the box. Guy pays me, I ship, staget the oartte clearly in ad PART IS NEW NO RETURNS. Guy gets in touch with me a week later - wants to return part, I refuse.

 

Guy files complaint with Ebay, I send ad & all correspondence - Ebay rules in my favor & refuses refund.

 

Guy files fraud case with PP - the guy had less than 25 Ebay/PP transactions with a 90% feedback, I had over 900 with a 100%

 

PP locks my account for 5 months! I finally agree to accept the return - I get te part opened, obviously used, without any recourse

 

F PP!

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Do not use or support paypal, very simple lesson I learned over 10 years ago and have never looked back. I had to threaten them with police action to get the money from them as they would not help and give me a run around on what to do and be repeating the same 3 steps.

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I was scammed out of $15 for a Rahseed magazine that I paid for using PP gift. PP told me there were no protections of any kind when PP gift is used. They did not go after the scammer. Never again.

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I was scammed out of $15 for a Rahseed magazine that I paid for using PP gift. PP told me there were no protections of any kind when PP gift is used. They did not go after the scammer. Never again.

It wasn't a gift- it was a PURCHASE.

Like I said- everybody wants to screw Paypal out of their fees.

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Paypal

 

 

I was scammed out of $15 for a Rahseed magazine that I paid for using PP gift. PP told me there were no protections of any kind when PP gift is used. They did not go after the scammer. Never again.

It wasn't a gift- it was a PURCHASE.

Like I said- everybody wants to screw Paypal out of their fees.

 

Yep straight truth that.

 

Now on to the points others have made:

 

Paypal is no more "Antigun" than S&W, Colt and Ruger have been in the past

Smith was once a huge advocate of mandatory Registrion

Both Smith & Colt were well invested in the bogus Smart Gun idiocy

Ruger used to be the worst when Bill was still at the helm. He pretty much established the 10 round mag limit and much of the feature list on what civilians don't need.

Paypal and Ebay went goofy under pressure from the government and their lawyers liability concerns. Both relaxed policy quite a bit.

 

I detest selling on GunJoker

plenty of Clowns who want to negotiate post purchase particularly on larger ticket items

I know a gun show vendor who brags about doing this to people. He targets new sellers hard, buys things then whines hard to get up to 20% refunds

that venue is a Den of Vipers

 

Huggy

Here's what actually happened. You busted yourself cheating the paypal model

F&F Gift is ​ONLY ​to be used for Gifts

I'm just shocked they didn't kill both sides accounts as both made it clear they violated the TOS agreement

As it is as the seller they are spanking you over being cheap and cheating them out of their cut buddy.

 

So how to avoid all this ?

 

1st thing you NEVER​ tie PP to a main account

Establish an account at a bank you do no other business with and keep a very very small sum in it. Credit Unions are good for this

Do not transfer PP balances into this account, obtain a PP debit card and take it out via ATM

Someone starts acting funky raising the spider sense call the bank and have them disable all electronic transfer access to said account pronto.

Yeah this means you lose on the ATM withdrawl and you have to hit the bank to deposit pre PP transfer but otherwise they can snag you up

Another thing, when you tie a card to PP disable it quickly and have a new one issued

 

More things:

I dislike Friends & Family Gifting

1st off if you are using it against a purchase you are being a cheat. I don't see much different in that than going through the self service lane at a supermarket and not scanning some things in your cart.

I charge 3.5% add on and do things as a standard purchase

Now even that is afoul of PP TOS but they don't really care too much as they are still getting their cut.

As the seller PP views you as the problem at this point huggy. We all know you are a great guy but in this case they are correct

you reached your hand in their pocket stealing nickels & dimes

brother it's not worth it.

 

I also chuckle when folks have a problem with paypal and try to resolve it via email

Almost all of that is answered by a calling center in India...sigh

Everything is always canned responses based on corporate script

To get things done somewhat you call mid morning. You usually reach the US offices then you will need to escalate up to management

figure an easy minimum of an hour on the phone telling and retelling your issue then demanding to speak to a supervisor before you start to get anywhere.

All email does is divert you to an overseas answering center, might be one American managing the operation. Often not even that huggy

 

I have used the service for roughly twenty years now

registered late 99' as an easier method to run overseas transfers

yeah had some issues over the past two decades, everyone was eventually resolved to my credit & satisfaction.

early 2000s had scammers claim they never received product

well I had slips and pix of the parcel as well as proof of delivery

claims dropped, other parties accounts closed

Frankly to be honest with you I have had more money order games than issues ever with PP

 

my suggestion, you won't like it either but to just pay up your Idiot Tax after ratting your own self out trying to game their system

I get it, I really do huggy but PP is a for profit.

You want to send the niece a Gift for her birthday or boyfriends bail...that's what it's there for dude

not paying even friends/family for Goods & Services money due.

Edited by JimB
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i sent my documents to the collections agency...they said i have 30 days to dispute.

i have 90 days to dispute my $130 refund with my bank, so we have a window there to work with..if the collections agency doesnt fix this in 30 days and goes further after me i am going to dispute my $130 refund and get IT back using the same method he used....i will have the mags and the $....i will have a messed with credit rating...or maybe then ill pay it off to move on

 

if i could go back----i would refund his $145 by clicking on his payment to me and sending that payment directly back to him...that was the proper way to move on.

 

im learning, im stubborn when i think ive been wronged...i should post his emails....absolutely nuts..guy is on meds or mental issues.

 

im hoping it clears itself up.....as far as my credit rating? i dont use credit and havent needed to in many years now. Only payment i have is a house payment

 

hoping my post educated others and passed my experience with PP Gift to others...i had no idea they were this bad or things would go this wrong with them..just happy its $145 and not $5,000

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i sent my documents to the collections agency...they said i have 30 days to dispute.

i have 90 days to dispute my $130 refund with my bank, so we have a window there to work with..if the collections agency doesnt fix this in 30 days and goes further after me i am going to dispute my $130 refund and get IT back using the same method he used....i will have the mags and the $....i will have a messed with credit rating...or maybe then ill pay it off to move on

 

if i could go back----i would refund his $145 by clicking on his payment to me and sending that payment directly back to him...that was the proper way to move on.

 

im learning, im stubborn when i think ive been wronged...i should post his emails....absolutely nuts..guy is on meds or mental issues.

 

im hoping it clears itself up.....as far as my credit rating? i dont use credit and havent needed to in many years now. Only payment i have is a house payment

 

hoping my post educated others and passed my experience with PP Gift to others...i had no idea they were this bad or things would go this wrong with them..just happy its $145 and not $5,000

 

Yeah there is a learning curve to the Web economy huggy but most of it's out their in the TOS

I know guys who came whining at me after PP locked them up "for no reason at all"

Well, I questioned them some. They were selling left and right taking Gift payments, hardly ever putting in to the system.

 

Maybe a decade ago I was hammering crap out with management at PP

They had locked my account over accepting payment on a high end German FWB .177 air rifle.

 

So a few things on that guys:

 

First, how did the even find out ?

That boggled me

Well PP was using some sophisticated AI based engine that scrolled the web looking for PP references. No Lie

My email was harvested and forwarded to their internal resolution center where since it was a "Gun" I violated their TOS after linking the listed price to a recent deposit in my account.

 

Now here's the thing all about that, at that point there were Air Gun businesses with Pay Pal Stores selling AGs with PP as payment method

Took 3 days of phone work to resolve that one and since you can buy/sell AGs using Pay Pal

did I mention I have been with them since 1999 ?

 

Big part of my credibility factor was practically all my inbound transfers were not Gifts, I wasn't scamming the system.

 

Another little discovery from back then is once you get to so many Gift transfers the main computer flags your account for "processing"

yeah PP places you under double secret internal probation

I suspect it's based on other users you are receiving or transferring from

 

For example you transfer a grand a month to the kid as a gift that's normal

conversely a dozen little odd ball transfers from different folks isn't good

anyone can see you are in violation at a glance

 

Reminds me of the local Native Casino

When they opened there were weekly coupons in the free shopper newspaper, $20 in chips for a ten dollar bill

We had folks who grabbed all the shoppers they could every week. They went in daily getting their twenty in chips, maybe running a slot once then cashing in.

Some tards were living all high and mighty

One family was pulling over a grand a week out of the operation between them and friends

peel out a hundred bucks and hit the local VFW

Eventually I was drinking with Elders, well what do we do Jim ?

Ban them from even coming in then slowly eliminate coupons in general in favor of better promotions

Today they do weekly Veterans Events including free meals for them and a variety of other things

big one is they do multiple drawings every two hours one day a week for our Vets

Usually a grand a week broken up in lots between ten and two hundred bones that goes on your casino card.

yeah you have to play them. If you win that's your money. You keep what you kill

and yeah Vets pack in for the Tuesday draws

 

So say some fool wins $200

well they may end up with a $100 on the card by the time they burn through it all plus they will likely have a nice Casino dinner and go home with an extra $70 in cash after draw out

 

Anyways I'm rambeling again huggy but you were kind of doing the same kind of crap to PP

Indians are paying a ten spot to walk in the joint, take the money and run attitude

Me ?

Yeah I used the coupon system real hard

Get my free tenner in chips in one pocket, my chips in the other

never spent one of my own and what ever I won went in with my money then I walked out after burning through their free cash.

I hate slots

 

again I am in no way picking on you huggy

many folks misunderstand how PP works both for and how it can work against you.

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As mentioned in a previous post. It is safer to have a separate account for online PP and Ebay/GB sales where you can transfer only the needed/small amounts and also have overdraft protection. I once had a buyer on eBay buy a $90 set of earbuds and give positive feedback. Then, several months later (right around Christmas) decide to open a claim saying they never received the item. Thankfully with my tracking and other documentation I was never charged a cent, but it pays to cover all your bases. It's a tough world on the net. There's plenty of crappy buyers as well as professional scammers who know the system.

 

Andrew

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As mentioned in a previous post. It is safer to have a separate account for online PP and Ebay/GB sales where you can transfer only the needed/small amounts and also have overdraft protection. I once had a buyer on eBay buy a $90 set of earbuds and give positive feedback. Then, several months later (right around Christmas) decide to open a claim saying they never received the item. Thankfully with my tracking and other documentation I was never charged a cent, but it pays to cover all your bases. It's a tough world on the net. There's plenty of crappy buyers as well as professional scammers who know the system.

 

Andrew

 

Boy it can get real bad fast:

 

Some years ago I sold a High Imperial Czarist Kindjal to a buyer in the Russias through his offices in Europe. Serious oligarch purchase, buyer was extremely pleased. So some time later while I'm abroad my Well Fargo bank card freezes

I'm like hmmm

have other cards though

Get home a week later WF had drained that entire account, claimed I owed them over 3K !

 

brother I exploded

local branch bank had cycled numerous checks three times each against an overdrawn account. Overdrawn because some fool in Belgium thought it would be cute to decline the bosses big purchase via PP/Ebay and get his money back

That resulted in a few interesting days

 

Short story ?

I called the grumpy bastard like 3am St Petersberg time, blew up on him

He had nothing to do with it

"will be taken care of" click and dial tone

it was but by then the damage was done at WF, cash cycles back and they claim I still owe.

 

Branch bank "personal banker" pretty much laughed at me

went ballistic, had Coppers called when I called the entire banking establishment THIEVES

yeah escorted out and trespassed from my own bank

 

Took close to three days of phone to get everything resolved with headquarters in Sacremento ?

Took that long to climb the corporate pyramid to a vice president who glanced at his screen, well this is irregular as "F"

it was irregular enough that the VP cancelled all fees and slathered on an extra grand in compensation due over having been dragged from my bank and formally trespassed by some witch in a cubicle.

 

Couple days later I walked back in, like every one was looking for a butt cheek to kiss

closed all accounts

oh the dumpy girl ?

She had been canned by corporate

even pulled and transferred my IRA

 

learned back then to run stand alones with paypal

anything larger these days that's international needs to come in wire transfer to my bank

no PayFail

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It would be easier to just use Venmo. Its owned by PayPal but used exclusively just to send or receive money from people. No protection of course but at least you are not skirting the normal system to skip fees. I use it all the time but not many people Venmo accounts so its only been family members and friends.
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