sapperboom Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) Inherited an M2 stamped carbine. Is it legal. Someone told me I need to turn it in. Before I give it to the police I want to make sure. Inland Div 7163XXX U.S. Carbine .30 M2 Edited March 10, 2019 by sapperboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Find the registration papers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapperboom Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 There are none. The MAS36 I have has papers. But none for the Carbine. Does not look good for this rifle. Cut it in half or turn it in is only option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 I’ve heard of people calling the atf and asking to research it by the serial number. It may be worth the attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry. There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum. David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go. He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information. Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down. Cheers,Sandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapperboom Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Pm sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) PM response sent. NFA Division number. (304) 616 4500. Edited March 10, 2019 by Sandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Unless you know rhe name and address of the “registrant”, knowing the serial number is listed in the NFRTR does you no good. The most difficult part of trying to move an MG out of limbo is finding the name and address of the registrant. Next of kin is also very useful if it can be discovered. Personal information on registration forms is confidential tax info and cannot be obtained from ATF/NFA without legal assistance, police inquiry, etc, and then often that is very difficult. It can get very complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief762 Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Is the receiver just marked M-2 and is semi-auto only or does the rifle contain the select fire parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 There are none. The MAS36 I have has papers. But none for the Carbine. Does not look good for this rifle. Cut it in half or turn it in is only option? Being that there are paper on the MAS good chance there are for the M2 as well.Besides being marked M2 is the gun in select configuration internally ? If it is that sort of raises the likelihood it's registered versus one that has a semi trigger group swapped in. As you were left these items and one is papered you should search under the name of the registrant on the MAS paperwell unless the name on the paperwork differs from the late relative.That happens tooWidow sells a registered piece of NFA to billybob's shooting buddy who sticks it in the closetThirty years ago I walk into a pawn shop and they have a MP44 in the rack. Look it over, shop owner assures me it's legit and legal. See lookee here, I have the registration paperwork and shows it to me. Well it was a pawn that expired. Took awhile to get it through to the clown he was in unlawful possession of a machinegun. Ended up getting him to pull it off the rack and cleaning up his bound book. Clued a buddy into it. Between the pawnbroker, him and the brother of the late registrant they did get it all squared away.Want crazy ?The old pawnster thought he could sell it on a 4473 with the paperwork. Again, over thirty years ago, the internet was a fart in the future back then and most folks knew nearly nothing about transfer procedure Thing to likewise be aware of M2 marked carbines were really not all that uncommon to run into years ago at shows & shopsTreasury only started taking a seriously dim view on them in the 60s and much of that was due to the infamous Minutemen organization after they were popped off with a fair number of both stolen and converted guns In the 70s the BIA supplied a fair number of Inland M2s to Indian police on Reservations. Most of these were stripped of specific internals and over time a good share leaked off Rez sold as run of the mill carbines to Round Eyes. We used to see that in MN and the Dakotas. It's not like there was a great deal of oversight on Indian Country Police The Museum option works tooThere is a military museum on the grounds of Camp Ripley in MN that takes in unregistered military C&R NFA. They will walk you through the process and give you paperwork for a tax deduction against the value of the piece which is likely greater than just parting it out. ATFE is ultra cool with this option, they have been assisting in it for many years at least in this State. The potential problem is off the streets, it's on the books as a form 10 and preserved in a government accredited museumThis of course does depend on your District of residence as the bureau isn't of the same mind nationallyAs a general rule though most any museum with proper accreditation can accept unregistered weapons. Local County museum had several MGs that were donationsthing was they had no paperwork on file regarding them. In the 80s BATF assisted them in a sale of the three guns. These were things that had been in the collection well prior to 1968. Never did find out what workaround was done by the bureau but I do know they went out as transferables from museum inventory.The 68' Amnesty was a crazy situation as most museums were unaware or just felt they were exempt. Same with VFW posts that had displays. I'm aware of a couple more cases where the bureau assisted in resolving these situations in favor of transferability so long as the item had been in the collection inventory pre 68' The recognized issue was it really wasn't until the very early 70s that Treasury started creating regulation exempting museum collectionsWhen you walk into some rural County museum and see an obscure old belt fed gun there is a high chance it came back from the great war, was donated to the historical society in the 20s and has never ever been papered. Know of an Aircraft Parabellum that way right now. Other early belt feds too.It was rank common for the War Department to supply captured ordinance for Vet memorials and displays. It was just given away for the asking. This went on well past WWII. Somewhere in the 60s the Department of Defense supplied it on a Loan basis retaining actual physical title. Might even have been the 50s when that change occurred. Thus you have two classes. One that is the real property of a community or organization to do with as they wish, the other they have no title to, that stays with DoD.It's a real can of worms that totally depends on status of transfer and yes folks have been busted over all this. Mostly over getting paws on static aircraft displays or Artillery that was still under DoD manifest title just a little sidebar to this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Keep in mind that ONLY the registrant of record or his legal representative has legal authority and, thus, access to ATF/NFA information.If you received the guns as the heir to your father's estate and the executor is still around, it would be wise to involve him and see what his records hold about the MGs, if anything. Worth the search.Also, as you may know, a carbine marked M2 is considered an MG regardless of whether the internals are select fire or not.FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Keep in mind that ONLY the registrant of record or his legal representative has legal authority and, thus, access to ATF/NFA information.If you received the guns as the heir to your father's estate and the executor is still around, it would be wise to involve him and see what his records hold about the MGs, if anything. Worth the search.Also, as you may know, a carbine marked M2 is considered an MG regardless of whether the internals are select fire or not.FWIW Yes exactlymy point was if the gun has a semi TG installed it may just be something never registered and passed around years ago as a M1 It certainly is worth the effort to do a bit of researchtoo many registered C&R guns have just fallen into the black hole of Estate dispersalsdamn shame that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry. There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum. David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go. He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information. Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down. Cheers,Sandman1957 I'm not aware of any solution through the Carbine Club, unfortunately. When it comes to M2's, the knowledge here in this forum is much greater than there, and when it comes to things like the XD M2's that were never in full auto configuration, many there tend to want to avoid the discussion. This M2 was clearly manufactured as an M2, based on the OP's description. I don't understand what the OP is talking about with the MAS36 having papers. Maybe they live in a state where a rifle requires registration, and those are the papers to which they refer, or maybe the papers are some kind of military bringback papers. Whatever the papers are, they almost certainly have no bearing on the M2. The MAS36 and the M2 are two completely different firearm types. The latter is NFA, the former is not. My suggestion is to seek legal counsel regarding the M2, in case there's anything you may be able to do that you may not be aware. Do not delay. Otherwise, turn it in to ATF, and if you decide to take it upon yourself to strip it of valuable parts, that is up to you, but I suggest making a decision, and acting on it quickly. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Sapperboom, If you do not know what Kilroy is talking about, pm me and I will assist you with contacting the NFA Division to see if it is in the registry. There are other options, one would be to donate it to a museum. David Albert may can assist if that is the route you will need to go. He is active on the Carbine Collectors association and may be able to pass on some good information. Worse case only surrender the receiver, keep all the other parts and put them onto a M1 Carbine receiver so you will still have some of the legacy that was passed down. Cheers,Sandman1957 I'm not aware of any solution through the Carbine Club, unfortunately. When it comes to M2's, the knowledge here in this forum is much greater than there, and when it comes to things like the XD M2's that were never in full auto configuration, many there tend to want to avoid the discussion. This M2 was clearly manufactured as an M2, based on the OP's description. I don't understand what the OP is talking about with the MAS36 having papers. Maybe they live in a state where a rifle requires registration, and those are the papers to which they refer, or maybe the papers are some kind of military bringback papers. Whatever the papers are, they almost certainly have no bearing on the M2. The MAS36 and the M2 are two completely different firearm types. The latter is NFA, the former is not. My suggestion is to seek legal counsel regarding the M2, in case there's anything you may be able to do that you may not be aware. Do not delay. Otherwise, turn it in to ATF, and if you decide to take it upon yourself to strip it of valuable parts, that is up to you, but I suggest making a decision, and acting on it quickly. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com I figured he was referencing a MAS38 Daveeven examined a dewat 38 in the 80s that was referenced as a MAS36 in the associated paperworkAs we all know things happened back then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 JimB, An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZelenka Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 JimB, An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved. DavidOne would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Unless you know rhe name and address of the “registrant”, knowing the serial number is listed in the NFRTR does you no good. The most difficult part of trying to move an MG out of limbo is finding the name and address of the registrant. Next of kin is also very useful if it can be discovered. Personal information on registration forms is confidential tax info and cannot be obtained from ATF/NFA without legal assistance, police inquiry, etc, and then often that is very difficult. It can get very complex.BRMCII, I disagree with your initial statement that "knowing if the SN is in the NFRTR does you no good". My recommendation is simple and straightforward. A M2 Carbine is NFA. The OP does not have paperwork. He should contact the NFA Division immediately to see if the SN is in the registry. It is, or it isn't. If it is not, then he can arrange for them to pick it up. They can also explain options he has for disposal, but he cannot keep it in the interim. If it is in the registry, then he can arrange with them to pick it up while the paperwork is sorted out. He has to do one of the two or destroy the reciever. Keeping it in his possession while he has no papers is flirting with disaster. I whole-heardedly agree that if the SN is in the registry then getting all the paperwork sorted out will require all the things you discussed about running down the info on the last legal owner. Sapperboom, the forum would appreciate and update on what guidance the NFA Division provided you. We try to assist folks with the best advice when in this situation. Contacting the NFA Division is ALWAYS the first step. If I am wrong, and not in line with the NFA Division's guidance, I would like to update what I tell folks. Thanks in advanceSandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimB Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 JimB, An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved. DavidOne would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe. This is more common than most folks know with LE guns Couple thingsIn old school police mindset they were often above the lawused to be many unregistered guns could be found circulating among the policeit wasn't so much some old Widow woman turning something in as it was Joe the elderly combat vet. Health goes bad, Joe knows he has a problem in the closet and call Butch, the town cop he knows from the local VFWOther cases the grandson gets snagged shooting something he snagged from the Grand parents home. Cop shakes a finger at the young Man, takes the gun and end of story.This was just how things worked well up through the 1980s The other thing is there was no oversight on what LE had in inventoryBack in the 70s the County Chief of Deputies dug into his own pocket to purchase a small number of 1928 Navy Overstamps for the Sheriffs officeWell when he left his position the guns moldered in a cell in the Jail, all pretty messed up. Sheriff asks pops if I'd be interested in trying to clean them up. SureSo the SO sends an officer by who drops several Thompsons off at my parents home !Dad was Federal LE so in rural Cop think, no foul Anyways two of those three SMgs are now missing, internal theft and most likely by two retiring Sheriffsagain this was real common LE behaviorSeem to recall there was a bit of that in that haul of Thompsons some years ago out of the St. Louis ? PDBunch of guns but there were a number that just grew legs and vanished. Used to know a retired Detective with the LAPD. Moved to Minnesota to fishHe had a really nice TSMgSaid he checked it out in the early 60s, just never turned it back in when he retired in the late 70sLord knows where that ended up when he passed in the 90s Don't even think things are greatly different todayGovernment posts a regular report on the numbers of "lost" guns in Federal LE inventorypretty significant numbers of MGsHow do you misplace a M16 or MP5 ? Anyways just some thoughts on what happened in your situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZelenka Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 JimB, An MAS38 makes sense. If he has NFA paperwork for it, I would think that paperwork probably exists for the M2. I hope it can be resolved. DavidOne would agree with this logic; however, I bought a couple MP40s from an estate of a former SOT that had other transferable and post sample guns. They found all of the paperwork for the guns except one all matching MP40. I filed a Form 4 on it anyway figuring the paperwork had merely been misplaced. It was in fact an unregistered gun. The estate ended up stripping the gun for parts and turning the receiver i to the ATF along with the post sample guns. It was pretty sad. The guy was also the chief of police (in fact the post samples belonged to the now closed PD) and we assume that some widow gave him an unregistered bringback MP40 that he just stuck in the safe. This is more common than most folks know with LE guns Couple thingsIn old school police mindset they were often above the lawused to be many unregistered guns could be found circulating among the policeit wasn't so much some old Widow woman turning something in as it was Joe the elderly combat vet. Health goes bad, Joe knows he has a problem in the closet and call Butch, the town cop he knows from the local VFWOther cases the grandson gets snagged shooting something he snagged from the Grand parents home. Cop shakes a finger at the young Man, takes the gun and end of story.This was just how things worked well up through the 1980s The other thing is there was no oversight on what LE had in inventoryBack in the 70s the County Chief of Deputies dug into his own pocket to purchase a small number of 1928 Navy Overstamps for the Sheriffs officeWell when he left his position the guns moldered in a cell in the Jail, all pretty messed up. Sheriff asks pops if I'd be interested in trying to clean them up. SureSo the SO sends an officer by who drops several Thompsons off at my parents home !Dad was Federal LE so in rural Cop think, no foul Anyways two of those three SMgs are now missing, internal theft and most likely by two retiring Sheriffsagain this was real common LE behaviorSeem to recall there was a bit of that in that haul of Thompsons some years ago out of the St. Louis ? PDBunch of guns but there were a number that just grew legs and vanished. Used to know a retired Detective with the LAPD. Moved to Minnesota to fishHe had a really nice TSMgSaid he checked it out in the early 60s, just never turned it back in when he retired in the late 70sLord knows where that ended up when he passed in the 90s Don't even think things are greatly different todayGovernment posts a regular report on the numbers of "lost" guns in Federal LE inventorypretty significant numbers of MGsHow do you misplace a M16 or MP5 ? Anyways just some thoughts on what happened in your situationI have found unregistered old MGs in LE inventories in the past. No way to get them out. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapperboom Posted March 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 receiver was cut in three pieces and turned over to the local pd. There were no full auto parts. It was in semi auto configuration. The rest was given to a collector near FT. Bragg. The MAS36 was just that, a bolt action Mas 36 from France. The paper work was from the commander transferring ownership to the soldier upon his retirement. There was no paperwork for the M2 leading me to believe it was either stolen out of the arms room or given with out consent. Either way he was scared and decided to destroy it. It was a nice rifle. Besides the M240B, 249SAW and some foreign full autos, I have never seen one of those. History in my hands. I was sad when he took the Sawzall took the sawzall to it. BTW the saw struggled to cut that steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapperboom Posted March 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 There was so many different answers to this issue. An overwhelming amount of "do this" and "it's not a MG" and "you have nothing to worry about" vs. the other half saying "get rid of it" or "why are you even talking about it". We knew it was a MG from the beginning. We read the BATFE's regs regarding the M2 long before we started asking on different forums. We wanted to see if the weapon could be transfered to someone that was allowed to own it. This forum was the most beneficial and gave the best opinions, we were surprised to see the amount of basically wrong and illegal answers. I do not know much about owning a class 3 but I knew the basics, and some of these firearms forums are going to get you in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapperboom Posted March 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 Not this one BTW, all of the responses were aligned with the regs, which led to the destroying of the receiver. I wanted it to go to a historical society, but it was not mine to make that decision. Ultimately, we feel it was the safest route and the easiest. BATFE was not polite when it was mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 Yes, you found the right place to ask. The difference is that this board is full of actual machinegun owners, collector, dealers, etc. You can get real data here instead of gun show opinions you get on other forums. 95% of gun enthusiasts know nothing about our niche area. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted March 16, 2019 Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 Sapperboom, thanks for closing the loop on this. CheersSandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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