Colt 1921 Serial Number Reveal: Gangster Gun

[john]

Always into local history. I tell students that although most historians are not gun owners, almost all gun owners are historians. Edited August 16, 2020 by john

[john]

Speaking of Stillwater and guns, I recall many years ago an old member of the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association told me a story about the Stillwater Territorial Prison. It was where Cole, Bob and Jim Younger were imprisoned after their capture when the James/Younger gang robbed the bank at Northfield Minnesota.

Turns out that Prison had a couple Colts Gatling guns guarding the prisoners and after that prison closed, those guns were nowhere to be found.

Never heard more about that but someone might have serial number records and perhaps some day those will turn up somewhere?

Stillwater is a Touristy town, logging heritage and fun to visit.

[giantpanda4]

Interesting find on GB.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886249837

Seller states Touhy Gang connection. Might be interesting?

Edited December 10, 2020 by giantpanda4

[colt21a]

Great info on all this my first was #4985 out of A Illinois {CHICAGO} P.D. AND #6349 OUT of State Of Illinois Police.

Never could track down the History from the start like they have on this gun Mentioned. Maybe the new owners can pull that off. good info from Chuck and others on all of it.

"A gun that will live in Infamy"

R.K.

[HANS]

Interesting find on GB.

 

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886249837

Seller states Touhy Gang connection. Might be interesting?

 

 

Wow, yeah. This is almost certainly the weapon seized from Roger "the Terrible" Touhy himself! Everything matches (when and where it was bought, when and where it was seized and in which condition) -- except of course for its lower

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[gijive]

All,

 

Board Member Colt Chopper did the honors of removing the barrel on this gun and revealing the original serial number a few months ago. I did some research on the gun at the time and discovered it did have a Touhy Gang connection, but may not be the gun actually discovered in Roger Touhy's possession. The gun in question, I believe, was taken from two gangsters associated with Roger Touhy when they were stopped in an automobile in the vicinity of Touhy's home in Florida. Their capture started a chain of events that resulted in a raid on Touhy's home in Florida that resulted in the capture of Touhy and another Thompson Submachine Gun that is still in the possession of the Tampa, Florida Police Department, as far as we know. I am basing this conclusion on photographic evidence from the newspaper articles that show the captured gun in the possession of the police (see article) and Gordon Herigstad's shipping information from his book indicating that # 5832 is a 1921AC Model. A subsequent newspaper article from the Florida newspapers shows a Tampa Police Detective holding a 1921A Model indicating the gun was seized from Touhy.

 

Some further research needs to be done to determine if the Tampa Police Department still has the 1921A Model shown in the below article. It is a rather circuitous and confusing story about how the gun (or guns) ended up in Tampa, Florida even though they weren't seized there. There are several articles that describe the sequence of events that are too numerous to post here today. I'll post more, if there is any interest, as I get time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HANS]

I did some research on the gun at the time and discovered it did have a Touhy Gang connection, but may not be the gun actually discovered in Roger Touhy's possession. The gun in question, I believe, was taken from two gangsters associated with Roger Touhy when they were stopped in an automobile in the vicinity of Touhy's home in Florida. Their capture started a chain of events that resulted in a raid on Touhy's home in Florida that resulted in the capture of Touhy and another Thompson Submachine Gun that is still in the possession of the Tampa, Florida Police Department, as far as we know. I am basing this conclusion on photographic evidence from the newspaper articles that show the captured gun in the possession of the police (see article) and Gordon Herigstad's shipping information from his book indicating that # 5832 is a 1921AC Model. A subsequent newspaper article from the Florida newspapers shows a Tampa Police Detective holding a 1921A Model indicating the gun was seized from Touhy.

 

Some further research needs to be done to determine if the Tampa Police Department still has the 1921A Model shown in the below article. It is a rather circuitous and confusing story about how the gun (or guns) ended up in Tampa, Florida even though they weren't seized there. There are several articles that describe the sequence of events that are too numerous to post here today. I'll post more, if there is any interest, as I get time.

 

Ah! Even more intriguing! The Model 1921AC seized from Touhy Gang members "Heinie" Kearney and August Lamar on 11-MAR-1933 in Tampa cannot have been this, either, however. since it did not have an obliterated serial number. It was in fact No.8024.

Since you unearthed that Roger Tougy's gun seized on 16-MAR-1933 in Titusville was in fact a Model 1921A, it obviously cannot have been this either.

Which means that a third gun was found in the area, the Model 1921AC (No.5832), also via Chicago. A Touhy connection is still possible, then, but less definitive since it was neither Kearney/Lamar's Model 1921AC nor Touhy's Model 1921A.

Of course, quite a number of other gangsters from Chicago were known to winter in Florida ...

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

[nate129]

I have a substantial update on #4945. Chuck, "gijive," has continued to research the local and national papers. He has unearthed many articles that help paint a picture of how we got this weapon. My next post will have a chronological timeframe of #4945 and the persons associated with it.

 

Chuck didn't stop there. He worked with Roger, "tsmg28," who had an original type 1 compensator in poor condition. Roger very graciously donated the compensator to us. The compensator was mailed to PK in Colorado where he expertly refinished it. When PK was done with that work, we mailed the receiver and barrel to him. PK removed the M1 barrel and replaced it with one of his reproduction 1921 barrels and Roger's refinished type 1 compensator.

 

Finally I mailed Chuck our original Colt wood. Chuck carefully refinished the wood with applications of linseed oil (no sanding was done). And he provided us some ww2 era internal parts to shoot with to avoid wearing the original Colt parts.

 

We are very grateful for Chuck and Roger's help on this project. Between the driving up here to remove the barrel and helping with restoration they have certainly incurred costs in time and materials. Thank you for your dedication to history and helping us restore this weapon rich in history. Our eventual plan is to display the weapon in a case in the private side of our office; I think its too valuable to risk displaying on the public side. Especially after the recent restorative work.

 

I have attached some pictures of the finished product to this post.

 

 

[nate129]

Here is a history of #4945 (work in progress) that I am writing up for our newsletter. Also planning on sending an intern to the local news paper archive to look for additional local articles, focused in September 1927. Additionally here are some photos Chuck found in his research of the principal actors. Another point to note is gangland apparently only had this weapon from May to September 1927.

• 1925: Barrett and Harry Morris was arrested by soldiers at Fort Snelling while attempting to remove guns and burglary tools hidden in the woods on the grounds. The two men have dynamite and pistols on their person, and were turned over to police and charged with weapons violations. They jump bail on charges. Other articles state they were only charged with vagrancy.
• 2/28/1926: St. Paul Police Officers John Schultz and Fred Pietsch are murdered. James Barrett is later named a suspect in these deaths, in retaliation for having been beaten by Officer Schultz years prior.
• 5/20/1927: 1921AC Thompson serial 4945 sold to “Gopher State Mines Company of Minneapolis” by Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods of Chicago. Colt Thompson Sub Machine Gun Serial Numbers and History – Gordon Herigstad
• 8/11/1927 around noon: Sisters Ruth Barrett and Lillian Kooser are found shot to death in the 2^nd floor bedroom of the Barrett home located at 398 Mount Hill Blvd St. Paul. The women were in night clothing and may have been deceased for up to 24 hours. Husbands of the slain, James Barrett and John Kooser, are wanted for questioning. Barrett is noted to be a financial officer at the Federal Acceptance Corporation of St. Paul (auto financing company) and had not been seen at work for some time.
• 8/11/1927 late: Barrett’s new car of expensive manufacture was found near Rice Street and County B2, having been badly burned with empty gas cans found nearby.
• 8/13/1927: Picture of Barrett is published in the Minneapolis Star explaining he is wanted for questioning in the murder of his wife and her sister.
• 8/14/1927: Body of James Barrett found dead alongside a rural road in Ramsey County, near James J. Hill Farm west of Centerville Road (north of St. Paul in a rural area). The body was against a fence with one bullet wound to the neck. The body may have been dragged and was present for some time, possibly since August 11 when his wife was murdered. The article notes that Barrett’s death is the twelfth suspicious death tied to gang activity in the last 18 months. Police speculate Barrett and his wife were killed ending a gangster feud, and his wife was killed to prevent her from talking to authorities.
• 8/15/1927: Barrett’s body positively identified by his parents L.W. O’Brien and D.D. O’Brien of St. Paul
• 9/18/1927: Art “Wickey” Hanson, former Barrett accomplice and safe cracker, was arrested in a police raid on of the Ledo Inn, popular gangster hang out, in Chicago ran by Jack Davenport of Minneapolis. Several other persons were arrested in this raid for suspicion of other felonies. Hanson is wanted for questioning in the Barrett murder.
• 9/28/1927: Art “Wickey” Hanson confesses to killing Barrett in self-defense. Hanson accuses Barrett of killing 5 men (including the two St. Paul Officers) and 5 women (including his wife and her sister on 8/11/27). Hanson alleges Barrett was trying to kill him because he knew too much about Barrett’s day business and night time gangster and bootlegging activity. Hanson alleges Barrett showed him a buried weapons cache outside Dellwood and stated he would use the Thompson hidden there against Roy Rogers and anyone with him. The cache also contained several hundred rounds of ammunition and a 33 caliber high powered rifle.
• 9/30/1927: Art “Wickey” Hanson leads detectives to James Barrett’s buried weapons cache near Dellwood (Mahtomedi) MN but the cache was found to be empty. It was then learned that the weapons were recently found by area children and turned over to the Sheriff of Washington County.
• 12/12/1927: Hanson is found not guilty in the Barrett murder on grounds of self-defense, and pleads guilty to robbing the Superior Oil Company station at Grand and Snelling in St. Paul.
• 4/25/1929: Letter from Minneapolis Police Chief to Chicago PD as quoted in Corner’s Inquest investigating Thompson guns being used by gangs: Gopher State Mines Company not found in Minnesota, and the only Thompson encountered thus far was found by Washington County following the murder of the supposed owner “Willam Barrett”
• 8/17/1931: Harry “Slim” Morris (arrested with Barret with nitroglycerin in 1925) is found murdered outside of Red Wing Minnesota, having been shot in the head and chest and left on the side of the highway. Morris used several aliases including Moran, Ryan, and Camben (Chicago area). Expensive and unusual eye glasses found on the body are tied to J.A. Camden of south Chicago. Camden identified as an important associate of Al Capone. Body is later identified as Harry Morris. Some speculate the murder may have been an attempt by J.A. Camden to fake his own death to escape the mob underworld.
• 9/18/1934: Washington County submits Registration of Firearms form to Collector of Internal Revenue. Date of acquisition is noted as June 20, 1925 (impossible based on this research) and described as “Thompson sub machine gun with silencer.” Serial number is noted as “chiseled off” and no serial number on silencer (likely the compensator). The form is stamped approved on 9/20/1934.
• 8/6/1935: Warrant issued for arrest of Tommy Gannon, close friend of late Tommy Carroll (Dillinger gangster), following a robbery attempt at a farm outside Rochester Minnesota. The homeowner defended the home with a shot gun and drove the robbers off. The body of John Kooser former bootlegger and racketeer was later found on a rural road near Stillwater MN (former Barrett accomplice and husband of his deceased wife’s sister). It was believed he was fatally wounded in the robbery attempt of the William and Henry Witte farm near Rochester. Gannon was convicted in October 1934 for harboring Homer Van Meter, Dillinger gangster who was later slain by St. Paul Police.
• 3/19/1935: Art “Wickey” Hanson is released from the Stillwater Prison following serving an 8 year term for robbery. The article notes Hanson later recanted the murder involvement as he was promised he would be freed if he confessed. The article also contains the names of Barrett’s victims as identified by Hanson:
  • St. Paul Officers Schultz and Peitsch 2/22/26
  • William McManus, Porky Wyman, and Josephine Brunell 4/24/27
  • Jack Sullivan 5/12/27 (who allegedly had a Barrett criminal organization leadership role)
  • “Teddy” DuBois and Ann Grenville 7/6/27
  • Ruth Barrett and Lillian Kooser 8/11/27
• 7/1/1936: Gannon and Art “Wickey” Hanson are arrested in a home in Minneapolis. Hanson was arrested for violating conditions of parole.
• 11/28/1970: The original registration form is amended with a new IRS serial number hand written in by E.G.G. Speculation is that this was due to another Thompson with ground off serial number being sold in the Midwest, that weapon also received a similar IRS number around the same time.
• Unknown after early 1940s: The 1921 Thompson has the original barrel removed and replaced with a smooth M1 WW2 barrel containing a WW2 era Cutts Compensator. Perhaps the original barrel was bulged/destroyed from a squib load being impacted by the next round during automatic fire.
• 2015: I begin researching the history of the Thompson from older employees and retirees. The only stories remember is the gun was taken from a bootlegger near Hugo or Stillwater. One employee thought a drum was present a long time ago. The only magazines currently present are 4 unmarked 20 round magazines and one 18 round shot shell magazine.
• August 2020: Thompson collectors and researchers Chuck and Roger respond to Stillwater Law Enforcement Center. They use a Richardson barrel wrench to remove the barrel and grip frame, revealing a hidden serial number: 4945. It is found that all components besides the barrel and compensator are original Colt parts. Chuck spends considerable time researching the Thompson. His research leads to the above information and is sourced from historical news articles, primarily the Minneapolis Star.
• August 2020: Reached out to St. Paul Police historical society for more information on Barret. I learned Barrett’s legal name was William Daniel O’Brian. I also learned none of the alleged murders committed by Barrett/O’Brian were committed with a machine gun. The two deep notches in the receiver may indicate memorable incidents while in possession of the Barrett/O’Brian gang, or perhaps they were later added by the Sheriff’s Office to commemorate significant raids or events. I also learned Barrett’s accomplice John Kooser was suspected of several bank robberies.
• November 2020: Renowned Thompson gunsmith Paul Krogh of Colorado removes the smooth M1 barrel previously installed on the Thompson and replaces it with a 1921 reproduction barrel. Paul installs and original refinished Type 1 Cutts Compensator which was donated by a Roger. The wood is removed and mailed to Chuck, who restores the wood with careful applications of Linseed oil (no sanding). The prior “Washington Co” spray painted stencil on the stock is totally removed.

Edited December 11, 2020 by nate129

[HANS]

Regarding the Touhy guns, on reflection I find it unlikely that three Thompsons were seized.

The Model 1921AC of Kearney and Lamar is identified (No.8024). No wiggle room.

The identification of Touhy's Thompson as No.5832 hinges on whether the seized gun was a Model 1921A (as seen in the Tampa Times photo from 14-SEP-1965, supplied by Chuck) or a Model 1921AC, as I had thought originally. Turns out that the Tampa Tribune from 01-MAY-1976 and the Tampa Times from 24-DEC-1981 provided photos of a Model 1921AC that they also claimed was Touhy's (sorry, I can't put them up, but it's easily located using newspapers.com). This, to me, makes it likely that the photo from 1965 of a Model 1921A does not show Touhy's gun, but another weapon. Did Tampa PD have one of these as well? I have to check tomorrow in Herigstad.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited December 11, 2020 by HANS

[gijive]

Regarding the Touhy guns, on reflection I find it unlikely that three Thompsons were seized.

The Model 1921AC of Kearney and Lamar is identified (No.8024). No wiggle room.

The identification of Touhy's Thompson as No.5832 hinges on whether the seized gun was a Model 1921A (as seen in the Tampa Times photo from 14-SEP-1965, supplied by Chuck) or a Model 1921AC, as I had thought originally. Turns out that the Tampa Tribune from 01-MAY-1976 and the Tampa Times from 24-DEC-1981 provided photos of a Model 1921AC that they also claimed was Touhy's (sorry, I can't put them up, but it's easily located using newspapers.com). This, to me, makes it likely that the photo from 1965 of a Model 1921A does not show Touhy's gun, but another weapon. Did Tampa PD have one of these as well? I have to check tomorrow in Herigstad.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

All,

 

Here are the articles that Hans is referring to, along with another article I found, showing that Tampa PD had at least two other Model 1921 or Model 1928 Thompsons.

 

 

 

I have been in discussions with Board Member Greg Fox (1921A) about these guns in recent days. Greg was a Firearms Dealer back in those days and actually purchased four guns from the Tampa PD in the 1980's. Notice in the first article that the caption says, "This is one of three similar machine guns in custody of Tampa Police, and one of the three was taken off Roger Touhy, by officers here in 1933. But they didn't know which belonged to Roger." Close examination of the first article picture shows the police detective holding what appears to be a 1928A1 Model with butt stock sling swivel and horizontal foregrip with WWII style sling swivel. The other two photos in the articles show what appears to be a 1921AC Model.

 

This information is consistent with Greg's memory and records of the transactions with Tampa from the late 1980's. Greg's records show he obtained one (1) Colt's Model 1921AC, serial # 5957, one (1) Savage Model 1928A1, serial # 300,000 range, one (1) M1, and one (1) M1A1 Thompson. There was another Colt Thompson that the agency wouldn't part with that Greg wished to trade for but the department armorer wouldn't let it go because he said it had a gangster connection. Greg did get a "C" drum with the transaction with the numbers removed, consistent with the fact that a "C" drum is shown in the newspaper photos. All three articles were written before Greg made the deal for the guns, so the articles showing a Model 1921AC could likely be serial # 5957, which was transferred to Greg. The only information on serial # 5957 in Gordon's book is the transaction from Tampa PD to Greg, no other shipping information is available.

 

If you disregard the M1, and M1A1 Thompsons, then two (2) Colt Model Thompsons and one (1) 1928 Model Thompsons are likely the "three similar machine guns" the 1959 article is referring to. That would indicate that the Tampa PD still has one (1) Colt Thompson. Greg and I are currently trying to establish if they still have the gun pictured in the 1965 article which shows a Model 1921A. Is the gun they still may have the Roger Touhy gun? We aren't sure but we are trying to find out. We'll continue the thread when more information is available.

Edited December 12, 2020 by gijive

[HANS]

Thanks Chuck for posting the articles for everybody.

 

I have been in discussions with Board Member Greg Fox (1921A) about these guns in recent days. Greg was a Firearms Dealer back in those days and actually purchased four guns from the Tampa PD in the 1980's. Notice in the first article that the caption says, "This is one of three similar machine guns in custody of Tampa Police, and one of the three was taken off Roger Touhy, by officers here in 1933. But they didn't know which belonged to Roger." Close examination of the first article picture shows the police detective holding what appears to be a 1928A1 Model with butt stock sling swivel and horizontal foregrip with WWII style sling swivel. The other two photos in the articles shows what appears to be a 1921AC Model.

 

This information is consistent with Greg's memory and records of the transactions with Tampa from the late 1980's. Greg's records show he obtained one (1) Colt's Model 1921AC, serial # 5957, one (1) Savage Model 1928A1, serial # 3000,000 range, one (1) M1, and one (1) M1A1 Thompson. There was another Colt Thompson that the agency wouldn't part with that Greg wished to trade for but the department armorer wouldn't let it go because he said it had a gangster connection. Greg did get a "C" drum with the transaction with the numbers removed, consistent with the fact that a "C" drum is shown in the newspaper photos. All three articles were written before Greg made the deal for the guns, so the articles showing a Model 1921AC could likely be serial # 5957, which was transferred to Greg. The only information on serial # 5957 in Gordon's book is the transaction from Tampa PD to Greg, no other shipping information is available.

 

If you disregard the M1, and M1A1 Thompsons, then two (2) Colt Model Thompsons and one (1) 1928 Model Thompsons are likely the "three similar machine guns" the 1959 article is referring to. That would indicate that the Tampa PD still has one (1) Colt Thompson. Greg and I are currently trying to establish of they still have the gun pictured in the 1965 article which shows a Model 1921A. Is the gun they still may have the Roger Touhy gun? We aren't sure but we are trying to find out. We'll continue the thread when more information is available.

Aha, so there are three guns in the running for Roger Touhy's Thompson gun (No. obliterated):

 

Model 1921A (No. unknown) (Tampa)

Model 1921AC (No. obliterated, real No. 5832) (Melbourne)

Model 1921AC (No. 5957) (Tampa)

 

Right now the Model 1921AC (No. 5832) appears to be the most likely contender, not only because of the von Frantzius/Chicago connection, but also because the weapon was seized by the sheriff of Brevard County. While Melbourne is in Brevard County, Tampa is not.

 

Did the Model 1921AC (No. 5957) have an obliterated number? Because that's a prerequisite, as Touhy's gun lacked the number.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

Here is a history of #4945 (work in progress)

 

Thanks Nate for this writeup!

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

[gijive]

Thanks Chuck for posting the articles for everybody.

 

Did the Model 1921AC (No. 5957) have an obliterated number? Because that's a prerequisite, as Touhy's gun lacked the number.

Hans,

 

Greg said that the serial number on # 5957 was not obliterated.

[HANS]

Greg said that the serial number on # 5957 was not obliterated.

 

 

Thanks Chuck! That would appear to rule out No.5957.

 

I have found another clue that points to No.5832: Herigstad reported that Peter von Frantzius sold it to Frank Thompson who sold it to Jimmy Jackson of "a printer's or painter's union." I think that tidbit is from the SVDM Inquest, but have not yet been able to find it in the notes I took when I was in Chicago. Anyway, Roger Touhy famously took over protection of, among other unions, the Brotherhood of Painters, Decorators and Paperhangers of America in 1931, which was the starting point of the long war between the Chicago Outfit and the Touhy Gang. That would very neatly explain how the weapon got into Touhy's hands -- and then ended up in Melbourne.

 

Cheers

 

HANS