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QEII Wuhan Virus Address Recalls 1940 Time with Tommy Gun


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"Queen used a Tommy gun sent by Churchill to practise shooting Nazis.

A Channel 4 documentary tonight reveals how the then Princess Elizabeth was trained to fire the weapon in Buckingham Palace Gardens at the height of the Second World War.

It tells how her dad George VI refused MI6’s plea to be evacuated to Canada in 1940.

Warwick University’s Prof Richard Aldrich adds: “He says everybody is going to stay and going to fight. He says, ‘I want to get my German. I want to at least kill one of the invaders and we will all fight to the last.’

“When Churchill hears of this he says, ‘You need to be able to kill more than one German.’”

So he sent the King a Tommy gun and the Queen Mum, Elizabeth, 14, and Margaret, ten, also learned to use it."

"When Nazi invasion loomed in 1940, George refused to evacuate his family from Britain. He was determined to stay and fight, and told Winston Churchill that he intended to 'kill his German'.

Churchill retorted that he might have to kill more than one, and sent him a gift-wrapped Thompson sub-machine gun. All the family practised firing it, though the Queen Mum found more entertainment in shooting rats in the palace gardens with her revolver."

 

May, 2019 articles

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/queen-used-churchills-tommy-gun-14997130

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/news/fighting-royals-king-george-vi.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-6995645/CHRISTOPHER-STEVENS-reviews-nights-TV-Churchill-sent-King-gun-kill-Nazis.html

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The king did have a Sten which was kept in a wooden case. He used to proactive on a small range in the grounds of Buckingham Palace.

The gun and case are in the Imperial War Museum, London. It used to be on display a number of years ago.

Never heard of him having a Thompson, I think in this case the term Tommy Gun is being used in the generic sense for an SMG.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

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This is interesting. I didn't notice it at first. Look at ole Winston's left hand. Did the Brits modify the forearm with the pistol grip?

 

899px-thumbnail-639x640.jpg

I have seen forgrips like that in some of the photo thread here.

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Never heard of him having a Thompson, I think in this case the term Tommy Gun is being used in the generic sense for an SMG.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

 

Alan,

Couldn't be a reference to a Sten as they were not even in production until March, 1941,. The two existing prototypes were not ready until late January, 1941. Winston didn't test fire a Mk II until June, 1941 at Shoeburyness, Essex. The time period King George received his Tommy Gun from Winston is December, 1940. The only "Tommy Gun" Winston could have sent to King George VI is the Thompson. Maybe the one he is seen with below.

 

Churchill visiting invasion coastal defences near Hartlepool, County Durham, England. 31 July 1940.

post-110-0-55555500-1586192636_thumb.jpg

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If only I could see a picture of the Queen squeezing off a few shots with the tommy, I'd be a believer.

Thanks to the corporal for showing the PM how to insert drum with bolt forward.

The modified horizontal/vertical forend that Winston is holding , no doubt was provided by Sarco Inc.

Hope I was some help.

Jim C

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There is a picture on page 93 of, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, showing King George VI shooting a Thompson gun on a military range, circa 1941. There is another picture on page 10 showing King George VI holding what appears to be a Colt's Model of 1921A with an L drum on the Maginot Line in France in December 1939.

 

Maybe the King and Queen turned in the STEN that is at the Imperial War Museum but decided to keep an off the books Thompson at the palace should the need for one ever arise. Hmmm....

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in the first posted pic, I believe that is Gen. Eisenhower shooting the other Thompson in the background.

Edited by giantpanda4
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I have re-read the articles. There is no mention of a date as to when HM The King got his 'Tommy Gun". Only proof thus far is the Sten that we know about.

As to the king being involved in deceptions for the intended landings in Normandy, this is true but this plan was not devised by MI6, this organization was used externally in foreign countries, not in mainland U.K.

 

As to wishing to join in the fight for London behind a barricade, this is also true. However, weather this would have been the case in the event of a successful landing by the German Army, we will never know, as the Government would have tried to persuade him to travel to Canada and form a seat of power there until the country could be retaken.

 

Regards

AlanD

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I have re-read the articles. There is no mention of a date as to when HM The King got his 'Tommy Gun". Only proof thus far is the Sten that we know about.

Regards

AlanD

Alan,

There is mention of the time period in the 1999 book "The British Field Marshals1736-1997" by T.A. Heathcote

 

"In 1940, when invasion was expected, George VI refused advise from his ministers to send Queen and the princesses to safety in Canada. He installed a small arms range in the grounds of Buckingham Palace where he practised with revolvers and sub-machine guns for personal defense in case of a German assault."

 

The Sten MKII owned by King George VI (description below) on display in the Imperial War Museum (photo below) would not have been manufactured until September, 1941. The threat of the German invasion of England was pretty much over by June, 1941. George wanted to kill Germans in 1940 during the peak fear of invasion. Why would Churchill wait until Fall of 1941 when he could supply his King with a TSMG in 1940? That this Churchill/King George gifted TSMG is not in the Imperial War Museum does not denote lack of proof of ownership/possession by the King. Not every firearm owned by Theodore Roosevelt is on display at the NRA Museum.

 

The George Sten Gun and case appear to be in superb condition. As TD postulated, maybe he preferred the TSMG and saved the Sten for posterity to be under glass in the museum?

 

Do you know of period references where the Sten Gun is monikered as "Tommy Gun"?

 

post-110-0-89923800-1586285576_thumb.jpg

post-110-0-60161300-1586286376_thumb.jpg

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I have re-read the articles. There is no mention of a date as to when HM The King got his 'Tommy Gun". Only proof thus far is the Sten that we know about.

Regards

AlanD

Alan,

There is mention of the time period in the 1999 book "The British Field Marshals1736-1997" by T.A. Heathcote

 

>"In 1940, when invasion was expected, George VI refused advise from his ministers to send Queen and the princesses to safety in Canada. He installed a small arms range in the grounds of Buckingham Palace where he practised with revolvers and sub-machine guns for personal defense in case of a German assault."

 

The Sten MKII owned by King George VI (description below) on display in the Imperial War Museum (photo below) would not have been manufactured until September, 1941. The threat of the German invasion of England was pretty much over by June, 1941. George wanted to kill Germans in 1940 during the peak fear of invasion. Why would Churchill wait until Fall of 1941 when he could supply his King with a TSMG in 1940? That this Churchill/King George gifted TSMG is not in the Imperial War Museum does not denote lack of proof of ownership/possession by the King. Not every firearm owned by Theodore Roosevelt is on display at the NRA Museum.

 

The George Sten Gun and case appear to be in superb condition. As TD postulated, maybe he preferred the TSMG and saved the Sten for posterity to be under glass in the museum?

 

Do you know of period references where the Sten Gun is monikered as "Tommy Gun"?

 

attachicon.gif King George VI Sten MKII.JPG

attachicon.gif Imperial War Museum King George Sten.JPG

 

 

Arthur, personally I am still not buying it. The range in Buckingham Palace was built in 1940 and the king did practice with revolvers and an SMG's but it does not categorically follow that he used what would have had to be a Thompson in 1940, he used an SMG but it could have been later and been the Sten, which we know exists. If he had been given a Thompson by the Prime Minister who was also the Defence Minister, it would seem logical that it would have gone to the IWM along with the Sten. That Thompson when handed over perhaps in the late 1940's or 1950's would have been regarded as an important donation at the time and the gun would still be known about at the IWM, which it is not - to the best of my knowledge anyway. The king may have preferred the Sten and handed the Thompson back during the war, in which case it would be just another Thompson in the system. Its unlikely there would have been a need for him to give it back for use by say the Commandos, as the Home Guard still had thousands on issue in 42,43 &44 even after handing most of them back and eventually having these replaced with Stens.

Finally, I cannot prove or disprove the king had a Thompson, unlike the Sten, and as far as I am concerned nobody can either. Perhaps one day some photos or film will emerge, until then its an interesting talking point!

Regards

AlanD

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Ive read a number of articles this morning on the Kings Tommy gun and most say the newly arrived tommy gun from America but there is confusion between them as some say Churchill sent HIS Tommy gun and some say A Tommy gun. It would be nice to think its been laid up somewhere but I think its gone, long gone.
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Arthur, personally I am still not buying it. The range in Buckingham Palace was built in 1940 and the king did practice with revolvers and an SMG's but it does not categorically follow that he used what would have had to be a Thompson in 1940, he used an SMG but it could have been later and been the Sten, which we know exists.

 

Regards

AlanD

 

Andrew Stewart's "The King's Private Army : Protecting the British Royal Family during the Second World War" mentions on page 44:

 

"Churchill would get the King one of the only recently arrived Tommy Guns, which had been imported from the United States "so he could kill a lot of Germans."

 

Stewart cites Wheeler-Bennett 1958 book "King George VI" (page 463) and Aronson's "The Royal Family At War" (page 29).

 

William Manchester, Paul Reid's 2012 "The Last Lion: Winston Spencer Churchill: Defender of the Realm, 1940-1965" mentions:

 

"The King ordered a shooting range built ion the gardens of Buckingham Palace, and there the equerries practiced daily with small arms, including submachine guns and a carbine given to the King by Churchill.

 

The carbine might be the Sten Gun. There doesn't seem to be any photos or film of King George with the presentation Sten.

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Arthur, FWIW.

jim c 351

 

 

 

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Posted 24 December 2014 - 03:10 PM

 

 

My wife recently bought a book titled "Their Finest Hour", by Winston S. Churchill. A 1949 publication.

 

What follows is a paragraph , from this book as found on page 379 of book One.

 

 

 

" In those days we viewed with stern and tranquil gaze the idea of going down fighting amid the ruins of Whitehall. His Majesty had a shooting-range made in the Buckingham Palace garden, at which he and other members of his family and his equerries practiced assiduously with pistol and tommy-guns. Presently I brought the King an American short-range carbine, from a number which had been sent to me. This was a very good weapon."

 

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My wife recently bought a book titled "Their Finest Hour", by Winston S. Churchill. A 1949 publication. What follows is a paragraph , from this book as found on page 379 of book One. " In those days we viewed with stern and tranquil gaze the idea of going down fighting amid the ruins of Whitehall. His Majesty had a shooting-range made in the Buckingham Palace garden, at which he and other members of his family and his equerries practiced assiduously with pistol and tommy-guns. Presently I brought the King an American short-range carbine, from a number which had been sent to me. This was a very good weapon."

Jim.

Your contribution is so far the earliest dated non-fiction book that mentions the King & his Thompson. The last sentence also mentions the short-range carbine being of American manufacture. This removes the presentation Sten from contention as what was being referred to in these books.

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I am now sold. The quote from the book, "The Kings Private army" is the clincher for me as it refers to 'recently arrived from America' which proves the matter, to me at least. I wonder where that Thompson is now?

 

The second quote about a carbine is presumably referring to an M1, clearly not in the year of 1940 though. Winston Churchill had a collection of small arms himself which were sold at auction in the 1980's by the UK auction house Weller & Dufty. In the collection was a Patchet, a Garand and from memory an M1. Surprisingly, they did not really sell for much more that if they had an anonymous provenance.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

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I'll bet a box of donuts that one Savage 1928A1 and one US M1 carbine cal 30 is still in the possession of the Royal family.

Realizing that history repeats itself, why turn the guns in.

After all, there has only been one war to end all wars and that was WW1.

Next time I see the Queen I will ask her.

Jim C

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'll bet a box of donuts that one Savage 1928A1 and one US M1 carbine cal 30 is still in the possession of the Royal family.

Realizing that history repeats itself, why turn the guns in.

After all, there has only been one war to end all wars and that was WW1.

Next time I see the Queen I will ask her.

Jim C

 

It wouldn't have been an A1 in 1940, it would have been one of the 450 guns from the first British contract for Thompsons ordered in Feb 1940. Which fits with the just recently arrived from America mentioned earlier.

I very much suspect as such, it was handed back once the threat of invasion had passed by summer of 1941.

Being a Naval man, there is also the possibility that the machine carbine mentioned could have been a Navy issue Lanchester prior to the arrival of the mentioned M1 Carbine?

 

Oh, and if we were having this conversation 35 years ago, I could have asked her......well, I could have got my father to have asked as he served at Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle between 1981 to 1986. :happy:

Edited by GeeRam
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Arthur, FWIW. jim c 351 Long Time RKI Member Board Benefactor 3096 posts 0 warning points Gender:Male Location:Ohio Posted 24 December 2014 - 03:10 PM My wife recently bought a book titled "Their Finest Hour", by Winston S. Churchill. A 1949 publication. What follows is a paragraph , from this book as found on page 379 of book One. " In those days we viewed with stern and tranquil gaze the idea of going down fighting amid the ruins of Whitehall. His Majesty had a shooting-range made in the Buckingham Palace garden, at which he and other members of his family and his equerries practiced assiduously with pistol and tommy-guns. Presently I brought the King an American short-range carbine, from a number which had been sent to me. This was a very good weapon."

 

Very interesting post.

 

The reference to the "American short-range carbine", could still be referring to the Thompson. In British terminology, 'machine carbine' was often used in place of sub-machine gun, as is shown in the British Commonwealth Small arms training Pamphlets dated 1942 and 1944.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21771&hl=

 

It is difficult to believe with the shortage of weapons the British forces had in 1940, with the expected imminent German invasion, that Churchill would have given a Thompson to the King for his personal use. I would have presumed there would already have been a protection team provided for the Royal families protection, as well as the Guards Regt. stationed at Buckingham Palace, to ensure there safety and security.

 

Here is a quote from George Orwell's “The Lion and the unicorn”, on how unprepared the British War Office was for war. “After 1934 it was known that Germany was rearming. After 1936 everyone with eyes in his head knew that war was coming. After Munich it was merely a question of how soon war would begin. In September 1939 war broke out. Eight months later it was discovered that, so far as equipment went, the British army was barely beyond the standard of 1918. We saw our soldiers fighting their way desperately to the coast, with one aeroplane against three, with rifles against tanks, with bayonets against tommy-guns. There were not even enough revolvers to supply all the officers. After a year of war the regular army was still short of 300,000 tin hats. There had even been a shortage of uniforms – this in one of the greatest woollen goods producing countries in the world!”

 

Note Orwell also uses the term "tommy guns" to refer to the German SMGs.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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Arthur, FWIW. jim c 351 Long Time RKI Member Board Benefactor 3096 posts 0 warning points Gender:Male Location:Ohio Posted 24 December 2014 - 03:10 PM My wife recently bought a book titled "Their Finest Hour", by Winston S. Churchill. A 1949 publication. What follows is a paragraph , from this book as found on page 379 of book One. " In those days we viewed with stern and tranquil gaze the idea of going down fighting amid the ruins of Whitehall. His Majesty had a shooting-range made in the Buckingham Palace garden, at which he and other members of his family and his equerries practiced assiduously with pistol and tommy-guns. Presently I brought the King an American short-range carbine, from a number which had been sent to me. This was a very good weapon."

 

I would have presumed there would already have been a protection team provided for the Royal families protection, as well as the Guards Regt. stationed at Buckingham Palace, to ensure there safety and security.

The protection detachment team was more than that, in the case of a successful invasion by the Germans.

 

Look up "Coats Mission".

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