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#1 kanister

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 12:15 PM

Attached File  Cuneo - NA 25419.jpg   241.35K   13 downloads

 

I have a question concerning the M3 9mm conversion.

Here in Italy many M3 were delivered to partisans, especially on the Langhe area (South Piedmont) and the central Liguria. These deliveries took place on the February/April 1945 on SOE controlled areas.

Attached File  Ballard dettaglio.jpg   17.97K   12 downloads (Here a SOE member with his M3)

 

The question is that withnesses tell that these guns were not .45 born and then converted with the conversion kit but were produced in 9mm.

Also the markings on the receiver told 9mm and were different from the common SMG.

 

Was the M3 ever build in 9mm on wartime?

 

 

 

 


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#2 emmagee1917

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 02:35 PM

As far as I know , no M3 or M3A1 was ever produced in 9MM . They were all conversions . I would love to see a picture of a 9MM marked reciever as well as pictures of the mag well and magazine . As you know , the conversions used an adaptor and Sten mags . I would guess that one made from the factory 9MM M3 would have a mag well that would take a Sten mag without the need for an adaptor .

Chris


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#3 jim c 351

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 04:57 PM

Chris,

Go to page 32 in Frank I's book "THE US M3-#A1" as see a picture that you will love to see. A one of a kind.

Jim C


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#4 kanister

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 02:38 AM

Chris,

Go to page 32 in Frank I's book "THE US M3-#A1" as see a picture that you will love to see. A one of a kind.

Jim C

Tank you for your reply.

I know the book and the photo at page 32,  it's a prototype, so I think few units produced, but here in Italy we got many thousand; all prototypes?


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#5 kanister

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 02:47 AM

Attached File  DSCF0873.JPG   106.38K   31 downloadsAttached File  DSCF0874.JPG   86.79K   35 downloadsAttached File  DSCF0875.JPG   75.66K   29 downloadsAttached File  DSCF0876.JPG   134.74K   25 downloads

 

Here some photo of a M3 that was found many years ago in a mountain hut: can you tell if it is a conversion from kit or a new production?


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#6 jim c 351

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 07:21 AM

Unfortunately you posted pics of every part of the gun except where the caliber and serial number is stamped. Didn't even show a good pic of the mag.

We are not into guessing.

Jim, C


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#7 kanister

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Posted 15 August 2015 - 01:19 PM

Sorry, but these are the only pics I own.

 

Even if I speak only a little, very little, English if I had a picture of the marking I would solve the question by myself.


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#8 Grasshopper

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Posted 16 August 2015 - 11:02 PM

Hi,

 

Just a guess from what I can see in the photographs, the middle picture in the first row looks like the magazine does not have a magwell adapter.  This would lead me to think the gun is made as a 9mm M3.  I've only experience with the reproduction conversion kits.  These kits have a folded metal "adapter" to make a Sten magazine fit the M3.

 

 

Thoughts from others?

 

Grasshopper


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#9 jim c 351

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 06:49 AM

GH,

What makes you think the pictured gun is 9 m/m in the first place.

Looks like a 45 to me.

Jim C


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#10 kanister

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 07:06 AM

All the witnesses with whom I spoke told that the M3 they got from the Allied containers were only on 9mm, but they did not know if were original or conversion ones.


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#11 Got Uzi

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 09:22 AM

Sadly the pictures lack any information that would help your cause.  Did the conversion mag well adapters extend below the bottom of the mag well?


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#12 emmagee1917

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 03:51 PM

Jim , thanks for the proto-type reminder , forgot about that one .

Got Uzi , the WW2 adaptor had a lip that flared out around the bottom that prevented the adaptor from going in too far.

I do not see any adaptor in the above picture photo , but it may not run all the way around the front . The photo needs to show another 1/4 to 1/2 inch more of the rear of the well .Page 121 of the above book shows an original adaptor installed ,

But , as was said , we have no indication if this is a .rare 9mm or a standard .45 . Without that , the lack of an adaptor is moot.

Chris


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#13 Frank Iannamico

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Posted 17 August 2015 - 04:59 PM

Dennis Todd had one for sale at the first SAR East show it was marked 9mm on the magazine housing, however as I recall it had a 9mm magazine adapter in it.


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#14 kanister

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 02:42 AM

Thank you for your reply.

If I understand what you say the conversion kit and the marking 9mm were factory applied.  It's right?


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#15 Got Uzi

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 05:49 AM

Not to my understand.  If it was field added there is no way to stamp the gun in the field unless they did a hack job of it.  It would be very clear VERY fast if you tried to insert a 45 magazine into a gun with a magazine adapter.  It would not fit lending one to deduce that this is a clue that it might be in 9mm.  It would only require a field stripping to change it from one caliber to the other (I'm speaking out of turn if the magazine adapter requires special attention) but the bolt and barrel would be a quick swap.

 

Like stated above-trying to figure out the M3 in the picture is almost impossible as the few areas that could answer the questions are conveniently missing or out of frame.  A picture of the muzzle of the barrel, a shot of the entire mag well, or the ID markings would be enough to answer this guns past.   


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#16 Mongo

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 08:52 AM

Given the complexity of making a set of stamping dies I bet any prototype for 9mm would be the same receiver halfs as the standard 45 version but with a spacing bar spot welded into the magazine housing. So they probably would look identical but the interior of the magazine well and the calber stamping would be the only diffeences.


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#17 kanister

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 09:14 AM

I have no more pictures of the M3 that was found in a mountain hut, so I cannot post them.

 

But I have many pictures of M3 on the hands of the Italian partisans: perhaps you can see if they can tell us something:

 

Attached Files


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#18 Got Uzi

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 11:46 AM

I will admit that a few of those could be in 9mm as the magazines look more "boxed" than a regular 45 acp magazine.  

 

Out of curiosity what happened to the one that was found?  


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#19 kanister

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 12:18 PM

Out of curiosity what happened to the one that was found?  

 

Destroied: here in Italy we can't have an active SMG.


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#20 Got Uzi

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 12:40 PM

I was afraid that was going to be your answer.  

 

I PM'd you a couple questions on another matter.


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