Jump to content

Range keeps a copy of Form 4


DougStump
 Share

Recommended Posts

There is a range just South of here that allows full autos, however the range owner makes and retains a copy of your form 4. I understand it's his property and he gets to make the rules, but I feel this is going too far. While I don't have a problem showing the form and verifying everything is legal, I have real big concerns with letting him keep a copy. An associate redacted his address but it's still got his name, and a phone book will reveal his address. That's the main reason I haven't joined that range.

What say you all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tax confidentiality only apples to the feds and no one else. Feds are not allowed to reveal personal tax info except to qualified personnel for official purposes. There is no such protocol outside of the feds between individuals.

There really is nothing official that the range owner can do with the information on your F4. However, if he is going to ask you to comply with his range requirements you can ask him to sign an affadavit that the personal info is absolutely private and he is not to reveal it to anyone for any reason without your permission. He will be liable for any consequences.

I would advise him that with your personal information under his control in regard to possession of firearms and NFA he becomes a link your personal firearms security and he thus assumes some liabillity if the info is let out of his control and you suffer a robbery or any negative consequences from his negligence. FWIW

Edited by Black River Militaria CII
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tax confidentiality only apples to the feds and no one else. Feds are not allowed to reveal personal tax info except to qualified personnel for official purposes. There is no such protocol outside of the feds between individuals.

There really is nothing official that the range owner can do with the information on your F4. However, if he is going to ask you to comply with his range requirements you can ask him to sign an affadavit that the personal info is absolutely private and he is not to reveal it to anyone for any reason without your permission. He will be liable for any consequences.

I would advise him that with your personal information under his control in regard to possession of firearms and NFA he becomes a link your personal firearms security and he thus assumes some liabillity if the info is let out of his control and you suffer a robbery or any negative consequences from his negligence. FWIW

Thanks BRM.

 

If its their policy and you want to use their property you would likely have to comply, however the argument could be made that anytime the registered property is on their property, the form would be with it as you should have a copy on you. Showing them every time should suffice.

 

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both indoor ranges i use do not ask for any nfa paperwork. There is a brand new just opened indoor range nearby Im going to stop in and ask what they need before i haul all my stuff in and get the 3rd degree. I personally dont like the idea of leaving a copy there but i understand where the owner is coming from we live in a sue happy nation. Edited by Petroleum 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

no one has ever even asked me or anyone else i know who brings FA to the indoor range i shoot at.....i could see them asking to see the stamp, but keeping a copy is not acceptable to me....they arent the police or atf....look at the stamp, verify your name and drivers license..done...

 

id find another range

 

ask them if they are pro gun or not?

 

sounds like they are fans of big government and keeping records of you!

Edited by huggytree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would not mind at all.

I'm just happy to see them let us shoot class 3. Most ranges around here don't allow it and claim it's for insurance reasons. God bless the ones that do allow me to shoot. They want a copy...….....ok by me.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Technically and legally the only folks how (who) can demand to see your paper is a enforcement branch officer of the BATFE or perhaps a civilian BATFE person or possibly State or local law enforcement. Yep ... it is tax information protected by law as far as I know.

 

That being said, the guy who owns the range calls the shots. Pretty much all of them. You have a choice of doing what he requests or try another range. Our world class range just N. of Grants Pass Oregon doesn't care either way. But, this is SW Oregon. Good luck.

 

All Oregon State Laws, US Code Laws, NFA Laws And BATFE Rules Apply.

Edited by HB of CJ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a range here that attempts to do the same thing. Generally it's because they are trying to CYA on something most people no nothing about.....including ATF, FFL's, and gun store and range owners/clubs. Perhaps it's worth taking the time to explain virtually all guns are legal, depending upon whose hands they are in? The form and tax are nothing more than an interstate commerce tax and proof of payment on a specific gun and has nothing to do with anything else. It's likely there are some felons shooting at his range? Does he take names and run background checks on everyone that enters? Or maybe he's just afraid of MG's? I'd feel him out, help educate him, and if he's chooses to remain ignorant then I'd leave it at that and go somewhere else. NO GOOD can come of you leaving your personal information in his custody if he's not smart enough to digest the legality of full auto firearms. Stopped at the NRA range in VA and they are just as ignorant, so he's not alone, but as an owner of FA stuff you learn to put up with a lot!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW, I joined a range in VA Beach VA, when I was still working as a GS-Emergency Essential Employee. The first time I went I showed all my Form 4s etc. I always asked a couple of their employees at the end of the night if they wanted to run a mag or two thru my guns. I went there at least a night every week or so. I stated up front to those who ran the place, that I was bringing in guest to shoot my guns. The guests had to pay to fire on the range, and they bought ammo at the range to run in my guns. Overtime, I was very well liked by the owner, as I was bringing paying customers to his business, and we had a very good relationship.

 

Ask to meet the owner, and explain what you are doing, and how you can help bring business to him. Then ask him to be very careful with your personal info. That has always worked for me. When it came time to renew my membership, it was waived. We had a very good symbiotic relationship. Good luck, just press the issue with how this can work for both of you.

 

Semper Fi,

Sandman1957

Edited by Sandman1957
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have had ranges ask to see my stamps, and I always thought it was out of line, but I showed them and tried to be polite about it.

Once I asked if they wanted to see my drivers license and vehicle registration since I was driving on their property.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW, we have a local gun shoot on private property twice a year. I got the NFA portion going pretty strong for awhile. Had alot of guns, let folks shoot whatever they wanted as long as they either bought ammo I brought at cost or had ammo I could inspect. Once a younger guy shot up with a very questionable gun. I asked to see the Form 4 and got a lot of grief from him about he didn't have to show it to me etc. Made for an interesting moment. When the shoot was over I informed the owner that all NFA items that showed up at the next shoot had to have their Form 4s, and I would inspect them. If they had an issue, I would call ATF and get an agent there to inspect. Funny thing, he never brought that POS back again.

 

Be polite, but stand your ground.

Sandman1957

Edited by Sandman1957
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's quite prudent of a range (that has liability) to check the legality of a machine gun. If I was the range owner and the customer got offended or saucy of me checking the stamp, I would tell him to GTFO.

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The range I joined in St. Louis is private and conducts a background check on each potential member before youre allowed to join. As long as youre wearing your identification badge and following the safety rules throughout the grounds no questions are asked. I would try to find a range like that. A big plus its all outdoors and you have a little more confidence in the people that are also there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The range that I am a member of has one person that views your Form 4 and gives you a signed permission form for each NFA weapon that you want to shoot at the range. You must have that permission form with you each time you go to the range. I have never been asked tho show that form to anyone!

 

It is a private range, not a public range and has 550 members.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I've been asked once to show proof at a range that my guns were legal, never again. I would not even consider leaving a copy of my paperwork at any range. BTW I work for the National Park Service and we handle a lot of PII (personally identifiable information) such as name, address, vehicle info, and even credit card info. We very carefully guard that information and it literally goes into a shred bag every day and it's shredded daily. If the government can be so particular with PII, I can't see leaving any of that information at a range to potentially be looked through by every jackleg kid who works there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are states where MGs are not legal. My state, PA, is one of them.There is an exception in the prohibiting law that allows you to possess and use one IF you own it in compliance with the NFA. The form 4 goes a long way to this end. If asked, I show. However, there should never be a reason to copy and keep it.

 

Bob D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's their right, but that's going way too far.

 

I never understood ranges that get so scared with NFA items as if it's somehow liable on them if you gun is registered or not.

 

Comically they will stand right up to the line when respecting obvious 2nd amendment rights but cover their ass when anything out of the norm crosses their path.

This range is nothing but cowards and or money grubbers ( A clever business investment).

The range I go to, the biggest in Dallas / Ft Worth, checks my paperwork then good to go.

Kinda pissed at the "know-it-all" range marshals that tell me how to use an MG. "Dude.. I was expert qualified before you were born".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...