50 replies to this topic

[Walter63a]

The article certainly speaks well of the AK-47, with its design roots going back to the WWII STG-44 and other guns from Nazi Germany. Also, Many believe the STG-44 to be superior to the AK-47. I suppose that is why many of the design features of the STG-44 are so often copied, as in the U.S.S.R.'s AK family of guns and the Israeli Galils and Uzis, to name the most well known examples.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Walter,
You must mean the StG -44 (not MP-40) made by Haenel Waffen.

[Walter63a]

Arthur, you are right, and corrections have been made. Regards, Walter

[Waffen Und Bier]

As I've always maintained (despite Kalashnikov's howls of objections), the AK is heavily copied from the MKb42/MP43/44/StG44 family of weapons.
The M16 is a classic firearm in its own right. Designed by a genius, nay a gun deity (and there are so few of them, John Moses Browning being another - call me a heretic, but one and two hit wonders like Kalashnikov and Thompson and Garand are not). First US military weapon of nonferrous alloys and plastics. First SCHV weapon adopted by the US military. In fact, first SCHV weapon ever adopted anywhere. I'm calling less than 1/4" bore and over 3000 fps SCHV. Its profile is pretty recognizable and has been adopted by and produced by many countries. Add it's length of service and that makes it a classic.

I think that article about that HK POS is wishful thinking on someone's part (although I'm sure someone said the same thing about the AR15/M16 40 or so years ago).

Anyway, between the Thompson and he M16, they are equally classic, depending on who you ask. JMHO

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Joh T's TSMG maybe his only firearm creation, but it is a one hit wonder that pale's all other multi-creations, except John Browning, by comparison. Kalashnikov's ugly duckling weapon may be a study in how any idiot can abuse it, and it keeps on firing, but it is no marvel of engineering, design, or craftsmenship. The Pentagon screwed with Stoner's orignal design and caused an initial poor reputation for the M-16 back in 1965, causing the pejorative "Mattel Toy" label. But surely Stoner is in no danger of elcipsing Browning's classic creations which have stood the test of time, wars, and the technological age. It is inevitable that the creeky M-16 be retired from service and be replaced by the new style reciprocating barrel AR-94 type weapons. Hey, even poor Jessica Lynch's M-16 jammed in battle without ever firing a shot. The U.S. may never adopt a bullpup design, or even caseless ammo, but even our Pentagon must see the tarnish accumulating on the M-16.

[96lt1ss]

I don't want to turn the focus on the M-16 but it's time for my two cents.

Personally I think the biggest cause for jaming is excessive oiling or the type of oil used in lubricating. It would seem in a desert enviorment a teflon coating, ceramic, or some type of dry lube would really be the ideal choice.

Second I feel adopting the AR-10 .308 caliber would add to the overall knock down power of the weapon. I dont think any rifle is really designed to be fired from inside a vehicle.

Lastly having no first hand experience with the M-4 I have to ask if they shortened the gas tube or went to a spiral wound around the barrel. As most people who play with this weapon know the disadvantage of the shorter barrel lengths is the gas tube issues and subsuqent reliability issues that it creates.

[Dave Janowski]

Well now I have both both have their place, though the tsmg is 100% more reliable, and much more fun to shoot.

My 16 is a little jerk sometimes ANY dirt it is crap!

My AK is different hell I damn near destroyed it and it still runs!

I wont dare do that to ANY tsmg!

Dave

[mp40]

Hmmm...The M16? first of all, the main "problem" that the Stoner design is that horrible Swedish "Lungman" derived gas system, that introduces high tempratures and carbon into the bolt carrier! Through a gas tube that is very susceptible to carbon build-up and heat loss, causing low, uneven gas pressures and cleaning nightmares!

The spiral wound gas tube is a interesting attempt to fix the problems inherent in the gas system, it truly is a wonder that the military has stuck with this design for as long as they have...

Also, the caliber, the 5.56x45 is actually not too bad, it is the bullet that is often the problem here as the Geneva-convention prohibits any "expanding" bullet in signees of the convention army(s) firearms this is a problem that the Russians sub-verted in their design of the 5.45x39-for their "version" of the modern infantry rifle, the AK74...The bullet, (with a hard steel penetrator) has an engineered in air-space in front of the penetrator that destabilises the bullet causing it to yaw when it hits the target causing debilitating wounds and therefore one or two shot stopping ability, that our bullet..design..sadly lacks...the original XM15/AR15/M16/M16A1 had 1 in 7 twist barrels that didn't allow the bullet to stablise fully allowing slight amounts of bullet yaw to occur and greater wounding ability. But at a cost: accuracy so we went to the 1 in 9 twist to stabilise the bullet for accuracy!

As for the Mattel toy appelation, the regular army troops when seeing their first AR15's in 1964 supposedly said out loud to the passing troops:Hey, look at their Mattel rifles! or something to that effect, refering to of course, their toy like looks compared to the (at the time) issue M14!

And yes, the AK47 etc. is ugly etc....BUT..IT WORKS ALL THE TIME! any firearm that works all of the time has been designed by a genius. And yes, the AK47 is a "knock-off" of the MP44! Infact, the first version of the AK was-infact-made out of steel stampings just like the MP44!


With all due respects to John T Thompson, I thought that he suggested the creation of a small portable machinegun, a "submachinegun" and he assembled the groups of people that ultimately went on to design the submachinegun that was named in his honor....



I just had to say something...!!!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

MP40,
Attempting to diminish John T's contributions to the firearm that bears his name, simply because he did not labor away as a machinist/designer, is the hight of absurdity. Those few men in history who have the vision to assemble the proper personnel who can make a reality out of a dream are what a civilized society considers innovators.

[mp40]

Authur not on your life, would i even attempt to diminish John T Thompsons legacy, it is a fact that he is not the designer of this firearm..The fact that he brought these talented people together for his vison of the "trench broom" is his never dieing contribution to all of the fans of the Thompson! Because, with out his vison and his dedication to his dream, we would be dimnished....

[John Jr]

""""Designed by a genius, nay a gun deity (and there are so few of them, John Moses Browning being another - call me a heretic, but one and two hit wonders like Kalashnikov and Thompson and Garand are not"""""

What else did Stoner design that has been adopted by the military? I am just asking, I don't know. However comparing Stoner to John Browning is like comparing Billy Ray Cyrus to Johnny Cash.

I don't have an M16 (I do have a lower Ar15 without an upper), but I will tell you why I am adverse to the AR/M16 class of weapons:

1. Gun is simply not reliable without extreme care.
2. I believe that the lack of forward assist and the brass deflector were originally design flaws.
3. The civilian version is simply too expensive, pre or post ban. (Not to mention FA)
4. The magazines are too expensive
5. The ammunition is too expensive
6. Accessories are too expensive
7. They are not too useful for killing deer, bear, or turkeys. (There are better choices)
8. That damn ching sound you get when firing one.
9. I’m sorry, but I think that round is crap no matter what they do to it.

It does offer the following in my opinion:

1. Versatile gun. You can shoot MANY calibers and configurations. (Shrike, MG34 config, 9mm, 45, 22lr, A1, A2, M4, etc...)
2. Great for varmints and coyotes
3. It looks sexy. Not near as much as a Thompson does, but still sexy.
4. They will always be in demand, even if the military drops it.


I am sure I will end up with one some of these days; I just have not been too serious about it. If the right one comes along at the right price I will pick it up. No hurry.

Quick question: Does anyone have both the Stug 44 AND the FA AK-47 for a good comparison for us; I have never heard that one.

Jr

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What can be gained by comparing a firearm (the 1921 TSMG) made before the development of TV, Jet aircraft, computers, nuclear weapons, space flight, and lasers, with a another gun (M-16) made after all of these technological advances? You might as well compare the Spirit of St. Louis to the Concorde. Considering all these advances in technology since 1921, you might think the M-16 would be an innovative marvel of design. It isn't.

[Waffen Und Bier]

Easy gents. I knew that one or two hit wonder thing would raise a few hackles. I was jest funnin' (sorta) You guys are so easy. That Billy Ray Cyrus comparison be fightin' words, though.

Gene Stoner designed the AR10 which really should have been adopted instead of the M14. We wouldn't have all this 5.56mm debate going on. Such is not life.

Okay, a quick Gene Stoner design discussion (besides the numerous designs that did not get adopted or put into series production). His designs were hindered greatly by timing, politics and the military's NIH syndrome.

AR-5 Air Force survival rifle (very limited Air Force purchase)
AR-7 popular little take down .22
AR-10 - big damn M16 (should have been our rifle - Portugal and Sudan bought some) which evolved into the AR-15 (nothing further needs to be said)
AR16 which evolved into the AR18
Stoner62 which evolved into the 63/63A (Navy SEALS and Marines in VN)

He also designed the 5.56mm round. I would not want to get hit on any part of my body with a 5.56mm round.

Okay, so none of his designs are perfect, but neither were John Moses Browning's nor Kalashnikov's. They all have detractors. I'm not a big fan of the AR15's dirty gas tube system, but he did it to reduce weight. Stoner is still a genius (Billy Ray Cyrus....harumph ). The AR15 was revolutionary for its day (1958). Sad thing is (although I like the M1A/M14 on semi), in 1957 (in spite of all of the technological advances), the US military adopted a gun that was based on John Garand's early/mid 1920's design, the M14. It was rather uncontrollable on full auto.

Just a clarification, the earliest AR15's had a 1 in 14 twist. The M16/16A1 had a 1 in 12. The M16 went to Vietnam without cleaning equipment or proper maintenance instructions. The powder used was the wrong type (over Stoner's objections). I hate to think ordnance types wanted to see it fail so they deliberately did this. Jessica and company hadn't cleaned their rifles in days (if you believe the press) and the lube the military issues sucks for desert climate.

MP44 vs AK47. MP44 just sits there and vibrates on FA. Slower ROF. The handguard do get warm on sustained fire. Gloves help. The AK bucks and climbs. It is rather obnoxious on FA. The little reinforcement pins in the handguards heat up on sustained fire and will burn the bajeebers out of you. Again, gloves help.

The AK, 1911, Hi Power, 1917/1919 BMG, Ma Deuce, BAR, and TSMG do qualify as classics in my book (so does the M16).

[mp40]

Waffen, oops my bad! the 1 in 14 and 1 in 12 are rarely quoted in my books that i have available..

[Bisley45]

First, the M-14 is not uncontrlable on full auto; I have that on personal athority of two viet nam vets and my own experiance. I will however say if your small and don't have upperbody strenght it is not for you.

The AK is no marvel, it's a STG44/45 with the gas system barowed from the SKS. Manipulation of the selector is awkward and noisy, and while it is in the running with the top 5 most reliable guns on the planet it's not overly original or innovative

The 16- has the WORST opperational system know to man for a combat rifle, that it has lasted this long when there were nice things like the Rhino gas conversion system I don't know. Their accurate rifles or can be made to be but the 1 in 9 twist and the SS109 bullet were the wrong way to go. the old M185 broke at the canliture and that is where it's lethality came from. 1 in 14 was changed to 1 in 12 twist so as to improve long range accuracy in cold climatic conditions. Field preformace of the SS109 from Mogadiu to Afganistan says it pokes pencil sized holes and keeps going. The M4 is worse as it lacks the initial velocity the 20" barrel gave it.

The current military doctrine holds it that 1 wounded man removes 3 from combat, one wounded two strecherbearers. I've never gotten to shoot one but the Ar-10 would have been closer to the right rifle, the magazines however IMHO SUCK. Aluminum has no place in something critical like a feed lip. An Ar-10 with overbuilt magazines like an AK-47 and an ar-180 gas system would give anything a run for its money for reliability and leathality would not be questioned.

BB

[Dave Janowski]

Only the top 5 most reliable?

What is number 1?

Yeah the 16 basically sux

Dave

[Waffen Und Bier]

Top five reliable guns. Have to put the 1911A1, M1 Thompson and the Uzi in there with the AK.

By uncontrollable wrt to the M14, I meant ability to keep full auto fire on human sized targets beyond 15 yards. The average shooter can't do this with a stock rifle. The E2 stock and muzzlebrake(sp?) helps. Semi it's great, but it's failing as an assault rifle was its cartridge, length, weight and lack of controlability on full auto (at least for the average troop - Marines are different- waiting for the next sheit storm over this comment )

Guns are like women. Variety makes them nice. Blondes, brunnettes, redheads, tall, short, thin, chunky They all have quirks about them,b ut for the most part, they are nice to look at, nice to hold, and fun to play with.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

It is preferable in regard to hair color, as Sean Connery said, if the collar and cuffs match. How is the M1 TSMG more reliable than the 1921/28? Sequels are rarely better than the original.

[Waffen Und Bier]

M1 had less parts than the 1928. That's my only reasoning. Happy Turkeyday. Gotta go to the in laws.

[LIONHART]

Hands down, an AK47 is better.