What Are Your Thoughts On This Gun?

[bigu2fan]

All you Thompson RKIs out there, what are your thoughts on this gun?

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale....cgi?read=87329

 

Do you immediately see any "issues" with it? The fact that the finish is thinning is not that important to me.

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

 

--bigu2fan

[Lancer]

It's difficult to tell for sure from the pics posted but this may be a Bridgeport 28ac with the U.S. ground off. The fact that it has no military marking and the upper and lower numbers match would seem to match the profile. If it is one, most but not all originally had smooth barrels and L sights so the barrel and sight may have been changed. Not a deal breaker in my view. 19K seems like a fair price.

[bigu2fan]

Lancer & Phil:

 

Thanks very much for your comments. I e-mailed the seller and he said the stocks haven't been refinished, but said they aren't original to the gun. He also suspected the barrel had been replaced. He said the gun came in with '21 internals. I was hoping for something a little more original. Guess I'll have to keep on looking.

 

--bigu2fan

[Z3BigDaddy]

QUOTE (bigu2fan @ Mar 28 2007, 08:40 AM)

Lancer & Phil: Thanks very much for your comments. I e-mailed the seller and he said the stocks haven't been refinished, but said they aren't original to the gun. He also suspected the barrel had been replaced. He said the gun came in with '21 internals. I was hoping for something a little more original. Guess I'll have to keep on looking. --bigu2fan

Dood I'll swap you out it you need to.... I wouldn't think 21 internals would be a down side.... jmho

[TSMG28]

bigu2fan,

 

I have to agree with Z3BD (and he beat me to the punch with his offer). The 21 internals are a PLUS, especially if they are original. If if they are aftermarket, they are a blast (pun intended) to shoot. You can find authentic 28 internals easily to add to or replace the 21 stuff.

 

I wish we could see a pic of the model and serial information, but given the current market it still looks like a reasonable shooter at a fair price.

[Hyper Sniper]

bigu2fan,

 

I will also echo what Z3BigDaddy, and TSMG28, If in fact it has original 21 internals they are worth 4 times what GI parts are worth and no biggie to find and change if disired.

 

The price is not bad in todays market so don't let that alone be the deal breaker!

unless it just is not the gun you are looking for.

 

Good Luck on your Quest

 

Dan http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[FireMerc]

I looked at this gun about a month ago so I'll kick in my opinion for what it is worth.

 

First I have to say that I talked to the seller (SOT) Mark Scott and would not hesitate for a minute to do business with him, one of the most honest and direct sellers I have spoken to in a while.

 

The internals are all Savage '28 and the rear sight is loose with the wrong rivets (AN Aircraft) which is not bad as they are aluminum (easy to remove) and the seller has not tried to tighten them and in the process screwed up the receiver. He has left it up to the buyer as to whether he wants to replace the rear sight with the original or just replace the rivets with original (nice to see a no BS seller).

 

The gun in all other respects looked good, exterior condition I did not see any pitting or any other turnoff's the rifling in the barrel was good, etc.

 

I would ask for some detailed pictures of the inside of the receiver as part of your inspection, I looked at several in the country recently and a couple seemed to have a high amount of wear but I can't remember if this was one or not.

 

When I looked at this one it was priced at $20,500 and that seemed a bit high at the time, but for $19,000 you may want to look at this one.

 

My .02

 

 

[drdave2441]

Why are the sides of the receiver so prominent with machine markings? It looks very rough. Is this correct? A WWII gun? The price seems very good for a select fire 1928.

[blueline541]

QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 28 2007, 09:48 AM)

Ditto to what Lancer said.  We know somebody swapped out (and saved) the "L" sight.  They probably also put on the finned barrel.  If it has no military markings, it may be like mine and those of several others here, who have ex-PD guns.  I wouldn't be surprised if this one is also in the 15X,XXX number range. Price is fine also, if physical examination verifies that this is a good, straight gun.

The serial number on this Thompson happens to start with 15 and the 'US' has been ground off. Does this automatically indicate this is a former PD Thompson? I'm new here and really like this forum.

[giantpanda4]

Welcome Blueline! Hockey fan?

 

Couple of questions - are you the seller?

 

And could the seller explain where the 21 internals went - it came in with them, where are they now?

[TNKen]

Probably a PD gun, but not always. I think this particular gun came from a PD according to Mark. My understanding is that the ground of US and overstamped "1" to a "C" indicates a "commercial" model or ("civilian") but no one is really sure.

 

Someone should start a campaign to find someone that worked in the plant for history. Assuming there is anyone still alive from that era.

 

ken

[blueline541]

QUOTE (giantpanda4 @ Apr 3 2007, 09:54 AM)

Welcome Blueline! Hockey fan? Couple of questions - are you the seller? And could the seller explain where the 21 internals went - it came in with them, where are they now?

I'm from the South so I'm not allowed to know anything about hockey. Is there a team called the bluelines?

 

And no I'm not the seller. My understanding is the current owner had spare '21 internals that he temporarily placed in the gun until he put it up for sale. The '21 parts stay with him.

[Hawkeye_Joe]

QUOTE (blueline541 @ Apr 3 2007, 12:24 PM)

I'm from the South so I'm not allowed to know anything about hockey.

But the Raleigh, NC Hurricanes did win the Stanley Cup... even though they didn't know what they were doing.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif

[blueline541]

QUOTE (Hawkeye_Joe @ Apr 3 2007, 01:08 PM)

QUOTE (blueline541 @ Apr 3 2007, 12:24 PM) I'm from the South so I'm not allowed to know anything about hockey. But the Raleigh, NC Hurricanes did win the Stanley Cup... even though they didn't know what they were doing.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif   http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif Although I fear this may make me sound like a moron, I've never heard of the NC Hurricanes.   I like SEC football. GO DAWGS!!!   How good are the chances of finding a Thompson's history through the FOIA?

Edited April 3, 2007 by blueline541

[giantpanda4]

Funny you should ask.

I just got mine back a couple of days ago.

 

It lists all of the dates any transactions occurred, for me they started in 1952. All names, etc. are blacked out. I cannot tell any names of who owned it. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif

[SecondAmend]

BL,

 

Re FOIA: You have to be the current owner to make a FOIA request (see the sample letter). What you get may only go back to a '68 Amnesty registration. What you get may be different than what was told to you by the seller. You may get a track all the way back to when the gun was made and first registered with the BATF. What you get may be so redacted as to be useless. It may cost you to get anything - they do have the right to charge for the service and sometimes do so. It may take you months of arguing with the BATFE to send you anything. That sums up my FOIA experiences.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

Good luck!

[TD.]

giantpanda4,

That 1952 start date makes even a stronger case your Thompson began life at Numrich Arms Company. I would like to see a copy of that 1952 document sometime. Thanks for sharing.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

 

Not sure what you mean by "began life" at Numrich Arms Corporation. GiantP's TSMG began life in Utica, New York in 1942 somewhere in the early 200,000 serial number group. If this were a NAC import, it would have the NAC as the suffix and if Numrich placed the serial number on it where none had been before, the NAC would be a prefix. And it would appear on the same line where you would find the original serial number. Of course we are assuming the faint "N" has anything to do with Numrich.

 

Since GiantP's ATF FOIA paperwork dates back to 1952, we know this was not a post 1968 amnesty registered TSMG and that the post WWII purchaser was probably a PD.

 

 

If you think Numrich had any of the machines found in the crates he purchased in 1951 up and running, and turning out anything to do with a Thompson a year later, then this is a leap of Superman proportions even for you.

 

GiantP,

 

Not that this is a fool proof factor in determining anything, but what does it say under name and address of manufacturer and or importer? If ATF redacted it on previous forms, what does it say on your current form?

[TD.]

Arthur,

Began life on the NFA Registry...

 

The serial number suffix and prefix information regarding the letters NAC you mentioned should be used only as a general guide. I believe exceptions do exist. I feel comfortable that George Numrich did not fire up any machines to manufacture the Thompson in 1951. While I would not bet my pension on 1952, I tend to think the time frame was probably around 1954 or 1955.

 

I think it very possible giantpanda4's Thompson may have been one of the Thompson receivers packed away by Maguire Industries in 1945 and later registered by Numrich Arms Company when it purchased the Thompson from Frederic Willis.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

 

GiantP's Savage did have a serial number that was originally stamped on it back in 1942. There is no way that this was a blank receiver with everything but a serial number from WWII. The "U.S." and "A1" markings, if they are genuine, and I can't see why they would not be, were not added to a Savage TSMG sans serial number. So why would Numrich erase the existing serial number and then add his own, and then add on another line what may be the first initial "N" ?

 

This TSMG has been refinished pretty heavily. Somebody eradicated the original serial number. We could use more photographs of the entire TSMG to make a determination.

[TD.]

Arthur,

What makes you so sure this receiver had a serial number stamped on it at the Savage plant? And if it did, who is to say that officials at Savage did not remove the serial number thus making sure it did not leave the factory as part of the government contract.

 

I agree a physical observation or more pictures may aid in making an educated guess into the history of this Thompson. Perhaps a nugget or two can still be deciphered from the FOIA material.

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

TD,

 

You believe Savage removed the serial numbers on the receiver and the frame, but not the "U.S." and then took this TSMG out of circulation in 1942 and then forgot about it? If their intention was to eradicate a serial number on a TSMG that wasn't going anywhere, you would think they would have just stamped "X's" over the numbers. Why go to all the effort of removing a number without replacing it with another number in the middle of a war?

 

The "N" might just be the first initial for the designation "NO" as who ever messed with this TSMG was going to put the new serial number following this "N" on the space below the original number.

 

If there was no serial number when Numrich got a hold of it, assuming he did, why bother stamping a five digit number, especially when adding any amount of numbers beyond two proved too challenging for his operation considering the backward "3" ?

 

Why would the refinishing only remove Numrich's "A" and "C" ? Why would this TSMG even need to be refinished if Numrich had a pristine Savage TSMG in 1952?

 

What it comes down to is we need way more info to figure out who messed with the original serial number, for what reason, and when.

[giantpanda4]

All very interesting. I do not have the paperwork with me, I will try to scan and post a copy tonite if I get time before my vacation coming up! I can't tell much - most of the info except dates and the occassional LEO name is blacked out.

 

Arty, you are right on one point. The letter "N" stamped below does have what appears to be the top of another letter to the right of it. This other letter could be a "O" or a "C", all I can see ifs the top. Definitely not an "A". I always thought it was another NOxxxx that was also ground off, but nothing makes real sense.

 

I will try to post pics of that as well, camera is already packed!

 

 

[TD.]

Arthur,

 

You believe Savage removed the serial numbers on the receiver and the frame, but not the "U.S." and then took this TSMG out of circulation in 1942 and then forgot about it? I don't believe anything regarding this Thompson. I am just making comments on what may have happened with this Thompson. No one knows anything at this point - other than this is not a normal Savage production Thompson.

 

If their intention was to eradicate a serial number on a TSMG that wasn't going anywhere, you would think they would have just stamped "X's" over the numbers. Why go to all the effort of removing a number without replacing it with another number in the middle of a war? I don't think we will ever know anyone's intention at the Savage plant during World War II.

The "N" might just be the first initial for the designation "NO" as who ever messed with this TSMG was going to put the new serial number following this "N" on the space below the original number. Very possible.

 

If there was no serial number when Numrich got a hold of it, assuming he did, why bother stamping a five digit number, especially when adding any amount of numbers beyond two proved too challenging for his operation considering the backward "3" ? I have no idea why anyone would use that number, especially with the backward 3 - it is all speculation at this point. However, we do know something happened somewhere.

 

Why would the refinishing only remove Numrich's "A" and "C" ? Why would this TSMG even need to be refinished if Numrich had a pristine Savage TSMG in 1952? Again, it is all just speculation. I don't think anyone knows.

 

What it comes down to is we need way more info to figure out who messed with the original serial number, for what reason, and when. Agree. However, it is very likely this riddle will never be fully solved. Hence, my speculation at this point involves what I can see: the letter "N" on the receiver and a 1952 date as when this Thompson began life on the NFA registry.

[blueline541]

Is there an available list on the internet of production dates for Thompsons based on their serial numbers? The serial number for the gun in this thread is AO153xxx and is followed by an X. And, of course, the gun is an A1 overstamped with a C. Anyone here have a clue as to when this particular Thompson was produced? Thanks.