Thompson Guns in British & Aussie Service

[rpbcps]

Kent Home Guard with TSMG & Lewis gun

 

Ulster Home guard unit 1943

 

Australian Home Guard 1943

 

1st Battalion Grenadier Guards 1941

 

Corporal of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regt. with well worn TSMG, awaiting to board for Italy 1943

 

5th Battalion Northamptonshire's Training in UK 1942

 

Belgium Soldier in training, Tenby UK 1941

 

British Commando Officer and US Rangers, 29th Battalion

 

101 Troop, Special Service Brigade in Training 1941

 

Surrender of Japanese Garrison Hong Kong 1945

 

 

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

Edited March 28, 2020 by rpbcps

[Ivan]

Great pics ! Captain Montanaro looked ready with his P08 Artillery Model W/ snail drum magazine !

[Stormin]

Always fun to see pictures of the TSMG in action...

[APEXgunparts]

Now I know how the British carried the BOYS A/T rifle into battle!
My father trained with the Thompson (as well as a whole lot of other firearms) when he was a member of the LDV (before the "Home Guard" was created)

He said the Thompson was a 2 person team, one person was the guns "operator" and the other bloke wore the vest with the drums stored in it (front and back)
He said the vest of drums was very heavy, and not very pleasant to wear.

Richard

[Taliaferro]

Interesting that almost all of the troops with TSMG w/ drums have the bolt forward. Which means that the guns are empty (I hope)

or someone has one in the pipe with the bolt closed (Yikes).

 

Tracie

[john]

Anyone have any photographs of the Hertfordshire Home Guard?

I used to collect Commando, ARP and Home Guard stuff years ago and bought a lot from a lady there. It has muster books, gunnery practice books, other misc paperwork as well as a whistle, a couple cap badges, etc.

Have to dig it out and see if there's a serial number listing if their Thompson's but recall they had two of them.....

If anyone has any information please let me know.

TIA.

 

john

[rpbcps]

Anyone have any photographs of the Hertfordshire Home Guard?

I used to collect Commando, ARP and Home Guard stuff years ago and bought a lot from a lady there. It has muster books, gunnery practice books, other misc paperwork as well as a whistle, a couple cap badges, etc.

Have to dig it out and see if there's a serial number listing if their Thompson's but recall they had two of them.....

If anyone has any information please let me know.

TIA.

 

john

 

In my collection I have one photo of the Hertfordshire HG

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

Some of those pictured in the back row look fairly young. Was there a minimum age for Home Guard Service?

[rpbcps]

Some of those pictured in the back row look fairly young. Was there a minimum age for Home Guard Service?

 

17, if I recall correctly.

 

Stay safe

Richard

[m3bobby]

Interesting that almost all of the troops with TSMG w/ drums have the bolt forward. Which means that the guns are empty (I hope)

or someone has one in the pipe with the bolt closed (Yikes).

 

Tracie

They say that a lot of the photos with Thompsons were staged propaganda shots that were going to be published. This way they hoped the Germans would see them and think the use of the Thompson was widespread and without the U boat menace causing a hinderance.

[rpbcps]

 

Interesting that almost all of the troops with TSMG w/ drums have the bolt forward. Which means that the guns are empty (I hope)

or someone has one in the pipe with the bolt closed (Yikes).

 

Tracie

They say that a lot of the photos with Thompsons were staged propaganda shots that were going to be published. This way they hoped the Germans would see them and think the use of the Thompson was widespread and without the U boat menace causing a hinderance.

 

In the past I have read the same about the early photos taken in 1940 when we had our backs against the wall having left a lot of military hardware on the beaches of France. I have also read that the same guns were originally used for propaganda photo shots with different units to give the impression there were more Thompsons in British service, than there actually was, in 1940.

There was initially a shortage of .45 ammunition for them, which was not standard for the British army, when the Thompsons were first being issued to British home guard units in 1940. Many units were issued new Thompsons, albeit initially with no ammunition. Peter Evans, ex-East Yorkshire Home Guard, is quoted as saying:

“We had two Thompson guns and several dozen Enfield Pattern 1917 rifles, which were chambered for the [American] .30-calibre ammunition, but we were issued with .303 cartridges which were no use. We had no ammunition at all for the Thompsons though, and were told that in the event of invasion we were to apply to the nearest regular army headquarters for a supply of cartridges. This was daft, because they were 20 miles away, which meant we’d have to fight our way to get there with useless guns in order to get our ammunition! Things got much better later on, though, and we eventually became very well armed; indeed, we had something like 20 Thompsons, as well as Browning machine guns, mortars and Enfield rifles. When we were photographed, we looked like a regular army unit.”

Stay safe

 

Richard

[rpbcps]

Great pics ! Captain Montanaro looked ready with his P08 Artillery Model W/ snail drum magazine !

 

Captain Montanaro was a veteran of the Royal Engineers who was evacuate from Dunkirk in 1940 prior to joining the 101 Troop No.6 Commando.

He earned the Distinguished Service Order in recognition of gallant and distinguished service on 11/12 April 1942 at Boulogne harbour, in France:

 

"On the night of 11/12 April 1942 Captain Montanaro accompanied by Trooper Preece, entered Boulogne Harbour in a canoe which had been taken by a Motor Launch to about one and a half miles from the harbour entrance. Successfully avoiding detection by the breakwater forts, and a number of vessels which were active in the harbour, they manoeuvred the canoe alongside an enemy tanker to which eight explosive charges were attached below water. They withdrew still undetected and commenced their return across channel without great expectation of being picked up until daylight some four hours later. The canoe had suffered some damage during the operation and the sea conditions were deteriorating so that it was fortunate that as planned the motor launch was able to make contact and pick them up an hour after they had left Boulogne Harbour, by which time they were 2 to 3 miles clear of the enemy coast. Subsequent air reconnaissance has established that the tanker was damaged and beached. Captain Montanaro displayed a high degree of courage, resolution, and indifference to danger, as well as skill in successfully carrying out this operation.".

 

He later joined the Special Boat Section (Home) (2 S.B.S.) and was the Chief Instructor in the early days until detached to command the Mobile Flotation Unit, being granted a commission as Lt. Commander in the Royal Navy and left the S.B.S

 

Ref: the LP08, although a little off topic for this board, my other passion is the Luger, and amongst those in my collection, I have a couple of LP08 Artillery examples, including a rare example from the Persian Mauser contract in the 1930's, with all the markings in Farsi, including the serial numbers.

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by rpbcps

[APEXgunparts]

 

 

Interesting that almost all of the troops with TSMG w/ drums have the bolt forward. Which means that the guns are empty (I hope)

or someone has one in the pipe with the bolt closed (Yikes).

 

Tracie

They say that a lot of the photos with Thompsons were staged propaganda shots that were going to be published. This way they hoped the Germans would see them and think the use of the Thompson was widespread and without the U boat menace causing a hinderance.

 

In the past I have read the same about the early photos taken in 1940 when we had our backs against the wall having left a lot of military hardware on the beaches of France. I have also read that the same guns were originally used for propaganda photo shots with different units to give the impression there were more Thompsons in British service, than there actually was, in 1940.

There was initially a shortage of .45 ammunition for them, which was not standard for the British army, when the Thompsons were first being issued to British home guard units in 1940. Many units were issued new Thompsons, albeit initially with no ammunition. Peter Evans, ex-East Yorkshire Home Guard, is quoted as saying:

“We had two Thompson guns and several dozen Enfield Pattern 1917 rifles, which were chambered for the [American] .30-calibre ammunition, but we were issued with .303 cartridges which were no use. We had no ammunition at all for the Thompsons though, and were told that in the event of invasion we were to apply to the nearest regular army headquarters for a supply of cartridges. This was daft, because they were 20 miles away, which meant we’d have to fight our way to get there with useless guns in order to get our ammunition! Things got much better later on, though, and we eventually became very well armed; indeed, we had something like 20 Thompsons, as well as Browning machine guns, mortars and Enfield rifles. When we were photographed, we looked like a regular army unit.”

Stay safe

 

Richard

 

My Father mentioned that even though they (the LDV "Local Defense Volunteers") had practiced with many different types of small arms (including the PIAT & BOYS), he spent nights on "guard duty" out on the Yorkshire Moors watching for glider or paratroops armed with a WWI vintage 303 ROSS Rifle.

He was not impressed with the ROSS, and remembered having to stand it on its butt and using his boot heel to unlock/open the bolt.

He and the other LDV members did manage to bag some small game while on patrol! (filled the stew pot)

That practice was discouraged and they had to start accounting for every round.

 

Richard

Edited March 31, 2020 by APEXgunparts

[Uncle Dudley]

A soldier of the 1st Company, 13th Battalion, 5th Wilno Brigade (5th Kresowa Division, 2nd Polish Corps) demonstrating a method of operating the 'George' (Jurek) or 'Polish V3' decoy dummy soldier, 24 March 1945. It was designed to divert enemy fire and, at the same time, to gauge the strength of the enemy fire power. Photograph taken at the company position at River Senio, 400 metres from the enemy line. -

[GeeRam]

 

Some of those pictured in the back row look fairly young. Was there a minimum age for Home Guard Service?

 

17, if I recall correctly.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Yes, my late father joined his works HG unit at 17 in September 1943, 6th Middlesex HG. He was an apprentice at the aircraft components factory that his father worked at, and they were both in the same HG unit. His father died on HG service a few month later in November 1943 after being injured in an ammunition explosion at the nearby anti-aircraft site that they had responsibility for guarding. Two female AA gunner's were killed in the same incident. My grandfather was hospitalised with his injures and while in hospital he contracted meningitis from another patient and died a few weeks later. It took my grandmother 5 years of battling the War Dept to gain a widows pension from the War Dept.

My father didn't fire a Thompson until over a year later after he joined the Army as a regular on 7th December 1944.

[john]

Well, I thank you Richard, as well as the knowledge and insight from others additions to the string.

It is interesting to see such a wide age range but that's how they rolled.

The books I received were muster books which included drilling, shooting and scores, general meetings, educational classes they took part in and roll calls, as well as other various duties.

Now I just need to dig those out and see if I can learn more about this group.

There's a BAR next to the Thompson too.

As Spock always said, Fascinating.

 

john

Edited April 29, 2020 by john

[DZelenka]

Can anyone tell me about the checkered horizontal fore ends? Were those unique to British guns or were they used by other commonwealth forces?

[rpbcps]

I am led to believe they were used by commonwealth forces, not just British army, during the Burma campaign to assist with grip in wet muddy jungle conditions

 

Stay safe

Richard

[DZelenka]

I am led to believe they were used by commonwealth forces, not just British army, during the Burma campaign to assist with grip in wet muddy jungle conditions

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

So not in the ETO?

[DZelenka]

This gun was an early 1990s Century Arms import. Does anyone know where Century got their TSMGs during that time frame?

[m3bobby]

The thing with Commonwealth countries is, they tend to follow in the footsteps of the British way of doing things. It made sense as they would logically be fighting along side each other and be supplied by common supply chains. Theres bound to be an EMER for modifying the grip and sling swivel as the checkering is more than just a one off and anything more than a one off would usually be authorised.

[GeeRam]

 

I am led to believe they were used by commonwealth forces, not just British army, during the Burma campaign to assist with grip in wet muddy jungle conditions

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

So not in the ETO?

 

Most unlikely...given outside of those guns issued to HG units, the predominate use of the Thompson by the British in the ETO was by the Commando's.

I've talked to many Bitish Army WW2 vets over the years back in the 80's and 90's, including Burma, ETO and North Africa, and it does seem to have been a Far East theatre of ops only in-field mod, from those that remembered seeing it.

 

My late production AO-prefix M1928A1 is a British/Commonwealth issue gun, with relocated sling swivels and checkering on the foregrip. From looking through the Iannamico books I think it was actually an Australian issued gun?

[GeeRam]

The checkering on the foregrip of my AO prefix M1928A1.

 

 

[rpbcps]

The example in my collection is one of the later US1928A1’s to be produced during WW2 by Savage, so it comes with the smooth barrel and 2nd version of the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight, marked with the company name only.

 

As well as the checked horizontal fore grip, and relocated sling attachments, it also has early a ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to ‘cross bolt’ upgrade.

 

 

 

Also a picture of British forces on exercise, one of the Thompsons with the Breech cover still in place.

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited May 4, 2020 by rpbcps

[GeeRam]

Sounds similar to mine, apart from mine being an AO made one, and mine doesn't have the REME stock mod, and having what I think is the Aussie marks.