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MP40 Question About Gun LIsted On Gunbroker

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#1 Haenelistklasse

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 05:07 PM

Hi, I have a question about an MP40 that is listed on Gunbroker. The MP40 looks like it has its original serial number on the receiver and barrel defaced or crossed out. A new number has been applied to the gun and the number begins with LRS a four digit number and then a letter. Is this a reweld gun? Or is it a gun that was refurbished by the German Forces during the war? It is a bnz 41 mismatched gun. I am not interested in buying. I just think it is kind of weird and interesting. Take care, Haenelistklasse


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#2 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 07:09 PM

This might help. The initials LRS stamped on the gun are those of Larry R. Smith of Cabin John, MD, a lomgtime MG collector and gunsmith active from the sixties on. He registered some MGs prior to and during the 68 Amnesty as well as reactivated many registered DEWATs over the years. This gun appears to me to be mismatched parts assembled to a registered receiver, possibly a reactivated DEWAT gun or a partial parts gun that was a DEWAT due to being inoperable rather than welded. The front serial looks period to me and does not appear to be a replacement. The h is odd, but the serial sizes and font look period. The x out number is mysterious and poses questions, but it is possible the gun was reserialled at some time. Possible Smith did it too with repro stamps but does not appear that way to me. I assume the registrered serial is the 5445h. I cant tell if the rear upper serial has been forced, but the fonts and their size also look period. Mixed fonts and sizes are pretty common on MP40s amongst the several makers.
Larry did not register this gun prior to or during the Amnesty because he stamped it. The stamp signifies that he either registered it on a form 1 between 68 and 86 and it should have been cut and welded. Or maybe it was not cut and welded but just form 1 registered, a trick often done through ignorance or also deliberately to increase the value over a reman gun. ATF never oversaw reactivations so anything could have been done and they would not know about it. They never saw the hardware, only paperwork so false F1and 2 registrations and reactivations happened a lot.
Owner can remove rhe bolt and look for a weld seam on the inside.
My preference is that he reactivated a DEWAT receiver tube, thus the initials for the work, and assembled it with mismatched parts. The trigger frame has the serial number.
Ineresting piece. FWIW

Edited by Black River Militaria CII, 13 March 2019 - 09:33 AM.

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#3 Speeddemon02

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:37 PM

If you are looking at the one I think you are he is asking way too much


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#4 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:53 PM

>If you are looking at the one I think you are he is asking way too much.<

Well, that’s between him and his customer......
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#5 huggytree

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 07:11 AM

i wouldnt buy that gun for $20k

 

id consider it for $16k maybe if its not a reweld

 

to be a correctly marked reweld it would have the makers name, city,state stamped on the gun....id want it dissembled and a complete look at it....a pic down the tube, a pic of the outside of the tube (both would tell you if its a reweld)..i paid $11,750 for my reweld 1.5 years ago----just to give you pricing.

 

id ask to see the form 4...if its got a persons name or a gunsmith company on it thats a sign of a reweld too.

 

i do not like how this guy blocks out the serial #'s everywhere...on the main serial # ? yea it isnt that uncommon, but all over the gun? that says something about the seller

 

i dont like it all pitted up...mine has micro=size pits on the receiver...otherwise it has 0 pits on the other metal.

 

ask for a video on the stock wobble, ask for a video of the upper to lower twist....they all have this to some degree and you will pay $ to fix these problems if it has them

 

over all- i dont like the gun..real MP40's have been selling high for a while now. when i was in the market a gun like this would have sat for months at $15,000-$16,000. but now it seems pitted/mismatch guns are selling much higher...

 

wait..a nicer one will come along. Id recommend a tube gun for $14,000. Many were done with nice parts kits, some can be found in new-wilson/erb made condition. tight, clean finish, never shot since erb/wilson made them


Edited by huggytree, 13 March 2019 - 07:21 AM.

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#6 Petroleum 1

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 08:11 AM

The photo taken thru the ejection port clearly shows some tool marks around the barrel area. The barrel also looks like it has some grinding marks on the face around the feed lip. The serial number on the barrel was even x'ed out...very strange.This gun has been listed several times there is no interest in it without  a price reduction.


Edited by Petroleum 1, 13 March 2019 - 08:12 AM.

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#7 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 10:24 AM

The photo taken thru the ejection port clearly shows some tool marks around the barrel area. The barrel also looks like it has some grinding marks on the face around the feed lip. The serial number on the barrel was even x'ed out...very strange.This gun has been listed several times there is no interest in it without  a price reduction.<

This is a very interesting gun and an early example of peoples efforts many years ago to use what was available to them and to preserve and resurrect MGs that ordinarily would probably be destroyed. MGs were considered junk by most gun people when I was a teenager and they could not look past their narrow minded preconceptions. When I developed an interest in MGs, a chance to own an MP40 like this one would have put me over the moon. I did manage to buy several well used DEWATs at the age of thirteen in 1956 that thrilled me no end. Looking at this gun for what it is rather than how awful, worthless, what it should be and overpriced it may be, misses all the aspects of it that are really interesting and which can teach you a lot about a big part of the history of collecting and preservation of MGs in the US since the days of Maxim and Browning.

There is no evidence of grinding on the breechface. What is clear and of real interest is that the barrel has seen a great deal of use and the boltface has imprinted on the breechface from impact. Possibly a lower quality alloy used to make the barrel or just a great amount of use. There is no barrel alloy number on the barrel. Rarely ever see a bolt imprint on an SMG breechface, so take note.
The very small row of tiny dings below the breech are of no import at all and dont indicate anything in regard to any redstoration work done to the breech area. The breech of that barrel was never welded.
Renumbered barrels are not particularly common on MP40s in the NFRTR but they do show up. This is a parts gun so it doesnt matter.
I have seen many Larry Smith guns and believe that he never remanufactured an MG, so it would be a surprise if this gun was a reweld.
Some of his reactivations had Cabin John, MD stamped on them with the LRS but mostly just the initials as a prefix to the serial.
FWIW

Edited by Black River Militaria CII, 13 March 2019 - 10:25 AM.

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#8 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 11:44 AM

From what I remember the interest in machine guns didn't take a huge leap until 1986, then everyone wanted one.


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#9 Haenelistklasse

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 05:37 PM

So just out of sheer curiosity, I asked for a copy of the Form 4 and the manufacturer does say Germany on it. So my question is, how can it have LRS plus a different serial number than the original gun and still be considered German manufacture? If it was registered by LRS with a new serial number, isn't that making a new MG? Can anyone explain this? Just very curious.... And I do believe the gun is overpriced but very interesting.


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#10 Rich.Urich

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:32 AM

Sometimes it is best to let sleeping dogs lie...


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#11 huggytree

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 02:27 PM

So just out of sheer curiosity, I asked for a copy of the Form 4 and the manufacturer does say Germany on it. So my question is, how can it have LRS plus a different serial number than the original gun and still be considered German manufacture? If it was registered by LRS with a new serial number, isn't that making a new MG? Can anyone explain this? Just very curious.... And I do believe the gun is overpriced but very interesting.

over 1/4 of my form 4's have incorrect info on it...caliber, barrel length, etc

 

you learn just to go with the flow....form 4 can give you needed info when buying, but its not always accurate....making it accurate is more trouble than its worth


Edited by huggytree, 15 March 2019 - 02:27 PM.

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#12 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:00 PM

Generally speaking "corrections" are no longer allowed.  Each form is required to revert back to the original information as the gun was first registered.  The only thing I've seen  that is allowed to be changed, and with photographic proof, is the serial number where a digit may be off if it was "misread".   The thinking supposedly is that for the registry to be "correct" all info must match the original description on the first registration.  The important thing is to have the general description of the gun mostly match the gun with the serial or IRS number matching.  Of course never have more machine guns than approved forms, that's really the key point! 

At one time on an audit I had one more form than a guns, no one seemed too concerned.......except me, wondering how I may have misplaced/lost what today is 25k.   


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