WTB: Original Matching MP40

[G-Man1006]

I am looking to buy an original wartime blued finished, matching, MP40 non-rewat / non tube gun. If any collector on the board has a MP40 to sell or knows of someone who does (collector/dealer) I would be an interested buyer. I purchased my Colt Thompson 1921AC from a board member after posting a topic like this and would prefer to deal with a fellow board member / collector. Please PM me through the board if you have something and we can talk.

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

Foristell, MO

[NFA amnesty]

https://www.davidspiwak.com/gun/mp40-cr-bnz41-in-excellent-condition-has-80-original-finish/

[G-Man1006]

I am still looking for an original finish matching MP40. I was considering the BNZ41 listed on David Spiwaks website...

 

https://www.davidspi...riginal-finish/

 

It went Pending several weeks ago...now it is listed for sale again. I did ask if the serial numbers are matching throughout the gun and they are. I did ask if there was any indication the gun is a re-wat and David said it is not a re-wat gun. I did ask for better photos of the few spots of oxidation on the right side of barrel - photos attached. Does anybody see anything with this gun that would indicate not original finish collector messed with MP40?

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

[huggytree]

Its a very pitted gun

Original finish? Looks finished over the pits to me

The majority of mp40 will be reactivated. As are most German ww2 guns

Spiwak has the worst reputation of the big dealers. Its most likely back in stock cause it was returned. My 1 experience w him was horrible.

[NFA amnesty]

I have purchased two machine guns from Mr. Spiwak (Thompson and STEN) and both transactions went great, However his photos are not great, and glad you asked for addition ones. He will offer to take back guns if you are not happy. Can only tell you my experience with him. You might want to make a trip to Penn state and look it over in person.

 

Hopefully others on this board can respond to you regarding your question on the finish. My two cents, it looks original to me based on the patina of the mag housing and general bluing condition, but it is pitted as Huggytree outlined above.

 

The resting bar looks odd to me but could be the photo.

[83Baron]

Ive purchased several guns from David and he is as true as they come. All are very nice ww2 examples that David represented truthfully and completely. If you arent happy he will refund you your money, and he stands behind his sales. I prefer to deal with him as Ive only had positive results.

 

The gun in question looks to me like original finish as I have a nice, all matching early MP40 in original finish with a couple freckles that look similar to what this gun has, albeit a bit more in this case. However, I prefer the original finish over condition but everyones different.

Edited February 15, 2021 by 83Baron

[huggytree]

If its original finish how can there be finish inside all that pitting? It would be huge orange blotches if original. Its not freckled. Its got craters. Spiwak is a bad communicator, very hard to get all the pics you want. (He pretty much just wants you to buy from 2-4 pics). Does not even do basic function tests on his guns and will offer refund but gets very frugal if you choose a repair. On the gun I bought he gave me $150 toward a $700 repair. Trigger wouldnt even work on my gun, barrel had rust fur inside and receiver had rust. He offered to cerakote it but wouldnt pay to park it. Told me it was not a collector gun ($8500 isnt collector grade I guess). Refused to pay for a new barrel and wouldnt pay for labor to fix trigger group. Ive heard more horror stories regarding David than any other big dealer.

 

Only dealer I buy from is mwt. They will get you pics, they will refund or fix. their fixes are fully paid for and done quick. Great communication too. They sell junk too. They all do. But they take care of their customer.

 

Sadly all the big dealers dont even look at what they sell. None of them even pull the bolt back and fire the trigger for basic function. Ive gotten non functioning guns from all of them. They just grab whatever they can find to sell and toss it in a box to ship to you. I prefer individual owner purchases. Ive found all have been honest. The junk guns often go to dealers to unload.

Edited February 15, 2021 by huggytree

[maxfaxdude]

If its original finish how can there be finish inside all that pitting? It would be huge orange blotches if original. Its not freckled. Its got craters. Spiwak is a bad communicator, very hard to get all the pics you want. (He pretty much just wants you to buy from 2-4 pics). Does not even do basic function tests on his guns and will offer refund but gets very frugal if you choose a repair. On the gun I bought he gave me $150 toward a $700 repair. Trigger wouldnt even work on my gun, barrel had rust fur inside and receiver had rust. He offered to cerakote it but wouldnt pay to park it. Told me it was not a collector gun ($8500 isnt collector grade I guess). Refused to pay for a new barrel and wouldnt pay for labor to fix trigger group. Ive heard more horror stories regarding David than any other big dealer.

 

Only dealer I buy from is mwt. They will get you pics, they will refund or fix. their fixes are fully paid for and done quick. Great communication too. They sell junk too. They all do. But they take care of their customer.

 

Sadly all the big dealers dont even look at what they sell. None of them even pull the bolt back and fire the trigger for basic function. Ive gotten non functioning guns from all of them. They just grab whatever they can find to sell and toss it in a box to ship to you. I prefer individual owner purchases. Ive found all have been honest. The junk guns often go to dealers to unload.

Huggytree - Thanks for sharing your experience. What type of gun was it?

 

I have purchased 3 machine guns on 3 separate occasions from Spiwak: a WH Tommy, a select-fire Maadi AKM and a M10 45 cal MAC. All 3 guns came in the condition pictured and briefly described on Spiwak's website. So far, so good. But as others have already said, if you are dissatisfied, he will take the gun back. +1 on MWT -- great people to work with and IMO MWT has the most no-hassle return policy of anyone in the business!

[huggytree]

Brp stg 76

 

Brian polling fixed it up for me and gave me a good price on the repairs as I think he took pitty on me.

[83Baron]

Huggy, at the end of the day the buyer has to do some legwork and ask the questions and ask for more pictures, etc. David has always accommodated any request in our dealings, and in 5 purchases over the years I have not had one issue which is not just coincidence in my opinion. Its unfortunate you didnt have a better experience but I would never rule David out.

[Haenelistklasse]

I looked at all his pictures and the gun looks 100% original finish to me. Not an expert but have studied them for a quarter century. Boy, I'm getting old!

[TSMGguy]

Dan, now you know that the gun is all matching. Only you can decide whether or not you can live with the pitting. To me, it's just part of the gun's story. I believe the finish to be original. The areas on the top of the receiver that went bright and then picked up a dark patina can't be duplicated or faked. The Bakelite is in really nice shape. It would be a pain, but you know that the gun can be returned. Can't explain that little chunk out of the resting bar. It's in an odd place. The bar does not appear to be a replacement. The pin that secures it looks original, too. These had hollow ends so that they could be flared during assembly. A gun with its original resting bar is rare. Most are repros today.

 

Can't tell whether the staking has been disturbed on the barrel nut washer and elsewhere. This is not a big deal, but it would indicate that the gun has been disassembled past field strip, for whatever reason.

 

Edit: A bnz 41 MP40 would have been originally produced with a hook type cocking handle. The safety type shown was added as a field modification in early 1942. Look at Frank's book for a view of the inside of the bolt where there will be welding and grinding easily visible, which is evidence of the mod. Some guns escaped modification, just as some slab sided mags escaped having grooves added to their bodies to increase reliability. This was also done in early 1942.

Edited February 19, 2021 by TSMGguy

[huggytree]

$24,000 for a heavily pitted mp40 I think is $5000 over priced. If you dont mind the pitting thats fine but I guarantee future buyers will. Reselling this gun isnt going to be fast unless its cheap. Most/all original mp40s arent pretty. Most have some pitting. Id be asking for a video showing stock slop and receiver twist. Youll be spending $500-1000 to fix that otherwise. Im a strong believer in grabbing a Wilson tube for $13,500 instead. His guns are very clean/ no pitting and should be tight. Tube is not sheet metal either, so your getting a stronger gun for $10,500 less. Over the years Ive seen much better guns than this 41 Bnz for $5000 less. Im not sure the mp40 market has risen? Im thinking its still flat and $20,000-22,000 should get you a nice example.

 

My mp40 is one of my favorites. Mine was a loose mess. I put $1600 into it to basically restore it to like new condition. another $1,000 for a nos barrel and improved stock, resting bar and Bakelite . Its tight and redone/ looks brand new. . Only pitting is on the mag well. Mines a reweld. I paid $11,000 for it 3-4 years ago. Runs flawless and shoots perfect. Ive got $13,500 into it now. Hold it up next to spiwaks gun and youd think mine is brand new. You dont need to spend $24,000 to get a gun your proud of. Dont look inside my tube and youd never know its a reweld.

Edited February 20, 2021 by huggytree

[johnsonlmg41]

Looks original finish to me. Wear/ chip in the resting bar there is not uncommon since that's an attachment point and maybe someone started taking the barrel off without removing it first, or it's an original part, but not original to this gun?

 

I have a sten tube and an MP40 parts kit that I can make look brand new for $7500......about as relevant to the discussion of an WW2 original MP40 as a cut up wilson gun. Price is in the eye of the beholder, but all matching MP40's are not that common. The vast majority are missing one or more matching numbered parts, and even though minor parts, it does detract from the value and put them in "average" class. A really nice 90's % (no pitting) matching example recently brought over 43K. There was no stock wobble video, nor wilson markings on it so someone apparently took quite a gamble?

Edited February 20, 2021 by johnsonlmg41

[Haenelistklasse]

$24,000 for a heavily pitted mp40 I think is $5000 over priced. If you dont mind the pitting thats fine but I guarantee future buyers will. Reselling this gun isnt going to be fast unless its cheap. Most/all original mp40s arent pretty. Most have some pitting. Id be asking for a video showing stock slop and receiver twist. Youll be spending $500-1000 to fix that otherwise. Im a strong believer in grabbing a Wilson tube for $13,500 instead. His guns are very clean/ no pitting and should be tight. Tube is not sheet metal either, so your getting a stronger gun for $10,500 less. Over the years Ive seen much better guns than this 41 Bnz for $5000 less. Im not sure the mp40 market has risen? Im thinking its still flat and $20,000-22,000 should get you a nice example.

 

My mp40 is one of my favorites. Mine was a loose mess. I put $1600 into it to basically restore it to like new condition. another $1,000 for a nos barrel and improved stock, resting bar and Bakelite . Its tight and redone/ looks brand new. . Only pitting is on the mag well. Mines a reweld. I paid $11,000 for it 3-4 years ago. Runs flawless and shoots perfect. Ive got $13,500 into it now. Hold it up next to spiwaks gun and youd think mine is brand new. You dont need to spend $24,000 to get a gun your proud of. Dont look inside my tube and youd never know its a reweld.

[Haenelistklasse]

I think your analogy is flawed. I mean that's like telling a guy that collects FG42s well you can get a Lorcin for a lot less. The guy that is buying a C&R MP40 is most likely buying it as a collector gun. The guy that is buying a tube gun MP40 is buying more than likely to shoot the crap out of it. Combat weapons are also given some leeway when grading them. These were used by a brave German soldier under extreme conditions. You are trying to compare it to a new gun or one that has been redone. If you want to find a minty C&R MP40, you will pay dearly for the opportunity. 40k to 50k is routine today and they very rarely come up.

[Haenelistklasse]

One other thing, you can never compare a tube gun to a C&R gun. The quality of a C&R gun is unmatched by a tube. Realistically, you can only compare a tube gun to another tube gun.

[huggytree]

Over the past 4 years Ive seen many very nice mp40s for less money.

 

But I guess thats the past and not now. If I were in the market I wouldnt consider this gun.

 

Too ugly. Too much for ugly

[Haenelistklasse]

I have too but everything seems to be selling now driving prices up. Even with true 100% matching guns you will not get everything you want unless you are willing to pay a lot. It may be all matching but the finish might be nice but not perfect. Most C&R guns are a mix between original finish, bare metal and patina. Personally, those are my favorites because they tell a story. I do agree though some are nicer than others and each collector has to figure out what he can live with.

[TSMGguy]

For some reason, guys can't stand any "slop" in the lock-up of an MP40 stock. The movement is original, a result of the design. It was there the day the guns were originally assembled at the factory.

 

Agree, a combat used, all matching MP40 with the typical light handling rash and finish loss is a great way to go. While the gun posted by the OP has some pitting, it's just a part of the story, as pointed out above. Agree, tube guns and mismatches are not in the same league. Market prices reflect this.

[WJP]

Looks like original finish to me. If it had been touched up or refinished the bare spots would be covered too.

[huggytree]

My gun had horrible stock slop. Now that its tight I can tell you its significantly easier to shoot. If the upper to lower slop is bad enough your gun will

Dissemble while shooting. Causing a runaway. My gun used to do that.

 

If your buying a gun w slop Id give -$1000 to get it repaired. Depending on the repair needed you might lose that original finish too

 

To each his own.

Edited February 22, 2021 by huggytree

[colt21a]

This was my last a ww2 bring back with full history from the German who was issued it in 1941 till he was captured with it in 1944.no pits or rust a all original... And yes documented history means a lot.a slab side Steyr 6601940. I wish the guy looking for one finds one just as nice.OUT OF THE TEN I HAD OVER THE YEARS. THIS ONE HAD THE HISTORY.

and has some remarked originals like this today are rare indeed.

RON K.

[83Baron]

Thats a very nice looking example Ron! I bet you got a pretty penny for it unless you still own it. I have a similar one, 1940 660 code mp40 in very nice condition and all matching. I bought it from a friend who bought it from the widow of the vet himself. Im out of town right now but I have the divisional pin with it that the widow included with the gun when her late husband picked it up in France in 1944. These original examples just have a feel and a history to them that a tube can never replicate - even if that means a little finish loss here or a little wobble there. Its all about the history at the end of the day.

[TSMGguy]

This was my last a ww2 bring back with full history from the German who was issued it in 1941 till he was captured with it in 1944.no pits or rust a all original... And yes documented history means a lot.a slab side Steyr 6601940. I wish the guy looking for one finds one just as nice.OUT OF THE TEN I HAD OVER THE YEARS. THIS ONE HAD THE HISTORY.

and has some remarked originals like this today are rare indeed.

RON K.

 

Very nice, Ron! I felt lucky to find an all matching, issued original bnz example that had just come out of the estate of the vet who captured it. No soldbuch, and no import "capture" papers as the gent was an officer who simply brought the gun back in his personal baggage. The earliest paperwork on it I've seen is the registration under the 1968 amnesty. Glad he registered it, or the gun would likely be a parts kit today.