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Old Alcohol Tobacco and Tax Treasury Form 4539

NFA Unserviceable dewat transfer

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#1 fifthmdec

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 04:08 PM

I received a packet of FOIA request paper that contained copies of a Form 4539 related to the transfer of some unserviceable NFA curios. Aside from the obvious retaction in full of some private information. It listed the SNs, model, classification, etc. How it was deactivated, the usual barrel plugged with steel weld and barrel welded to the receiver.

They were purchased from an estate in CALIFORNIA. Signed and approved after the first transfer after they were registered in the NFRTR Pre-68 and one during the Amnesty period. It is my understanding that this form accompanied and CLEO sign off at one time. Where as stipulating that the transferee is not in violation of State and local law. . Especially in States like CA. Unserviceable NFA curios in CA followed the Federal statues as the State does not have a policy. They have a weasel word serviceable that is not even in of by itself has no definition. Other than vague it is a tactic the CADOJ can attempt to keep them if for some reason they ended up with them.

We purchased them in 2006...



I know of several people that had their businesses raided because they had these items on display. Legally registered of course.


An information from some of guys that have been around the last 30-40 years would be appreciated.


Ill try and attach it...


Thanks,

DavidAttached File  Ppsh 41 SN K5623.pdf   461.43K   66 downloadsAttached File  Ppsh 41 SN K5623.pdf   461.43K   66 downloads

Edited by fifthmdec, 22 March 2019 - 04:14 PM.

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#2 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 09:06 PM

Interesting communication. It is a letter transfer. The pics are not of treasury form 4539, but of a letter from the registrant to treasury requesting transfer of the DEWAT PPSh. All the necessary informationl is included to request a tax exempt transfer. It is basically a homemade “Form 5” tax exempt transfer of a registered DEWAT. The letter had a copy of the 4539 attached to it. The 4539 was a treasury identification form of the transferee to whom the gun was going to transfer. Ths letter transfer was approved.
That’s a very unusual document and a worthy historical inclusion with the gun. That’s what I make of it.
Many NFA owners are very dismissive of FOIA documentation claiiming that there’s no valuable or useful info, but there is much valuable information in these histories when one knows for what to look. This is an exceptional example of what can be found.
Thanks for posting it. FWIW
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#3 fifthmdec

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 07:19 PM

I appreciate the reply. Interestingly, one of the other dewats in the purchase was originally entered into the NRTFR in 1955 and again in 1968 during the Amnesty. The third dewat was registered during the Amnesty with the original owner stating that they promise to have it rendered Unserviceable.

Then re-registered it as Unserviceable as such. All three have the same form attached to the first transfer from the original owner. Same form as the Ppsh41 and the other forms mention the Treasury form 4539.

It is my understanding that all three dewats were first entered into the NFRTR in the State of CA. Two originally in 1955 on Form 1s with one re-registered in 1968 along with the 3rd one.

Per the decedent's estate, the owner was an employee of the Gun Exchange in San Francisco. His nickname was Fat Jack. If anyone had visited the store in the 60s and 70s would remember all of the dewats on the walls including upstairs.

Also, the store was featured in one episode of the Streets of San Francisco. Many of the dewats were in the background during a scene at the beginning of that episode.

Also, there were local offices of the then AT&T Internal Revenue offices where the actual deactivation occurred. After the war Trophy Act of 1946, there needed to be a standard method of rendering these MGs as Unserviceable. Just deactivation on it's own, by any means available was unacceptable. So through a series of changes listed in the Internal Revenue circulars. A standard method was established,and the process was to be done by competent welders. The Internal Revenue supervisors were to oversee and approve the process.

I have always wondered if or what forms were used by the supervisors on scene in order to approve of the methods used. Since that was the process one would think that some form must have accompanied the registration forms, used in the attaining of the status of a tax exemption as Unserviceable in the NFRTR.

Edited by fifthmdec, 24 March 2019 - 07:21 PM.

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#4 Robert Henley

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 04:09 AM

 

 

Also, there were local offices of the then AT&T Internal Revenue offices where the actual deactivation occurred. After the war Trophy Act of 1946, there needed to be a standard method of rendering these MGs as Unserviceable. Just deactivation on it's own, by any means available was unacceptable. So through a series of changes listed in the Internal Revenue circulars. A standard method was established,and the process was to be done by competent welders. The Internal Revenue supervisors were to oversee and approve the process.

 

What was the "standard method" for rendering one unserviceable?

 

I had a question about the destruction requirements at the following post:

 

http://www.machinegu...showtopic=23169


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#5 DZelenka

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 09:55 AM

In my M1A1 Thompson FOIA, I have a letter transfer of a live gun from a District Attorney's office.


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#6 fifthmdec

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:20 AM

The accepted minimum standard was to have the barrel plugged with a steel weld and the barrel welded to the receiver to the receiver.

Ive had deactivated unserviceable firearms that more was done besides the minimum. In the 1950s there were lots of these deactivated firearms on the market. From what I understand is that there were enough that not deactivated enough. The term dewat morphed into unserviceable through a standardized process by the Treasury Department division of the AT&T.

We had a deactivated unserviceable Ppsh41 that was brought back by a Navy vertern who served in the Korean War.since it was unregistered and a live submachinegun upon his return. A couple of years later he had it deactivated and registered in the NFRTR.

The the process took place at the local Navel Courthouse in the city that he resided in during that time.

The accepted minimum standard was to have the barrel plugged with a steel weld and the barrel welded to the receiver to the receiver.

Ive had deactivated unserviceable firearms that more was done besides the minimum. In the 1950s there were lots of these deactivated firearms on the market. From what I understand is that there were enough that not deactivated enough. The term dewat morphed into unserviceable through a standardized process by the Treasury Department division of the AT&T.

We had a deactivated unserviceable Ppsh41 that was brought back buy a Navy vertern who served in the Korean War.since it was unregistered and a live submachinegun upon his return. A couple of years later he had it deactivated and registered in the NFRTR.

The the process took place at the local Navel Courthouse in the city that he resided in during that time.

He was still in the Navy at the time of registration.

Edited by fifthmdec, 25 March 2019 - 04:30 PM.

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#7 fifthmdec

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 04:25 PM

In my M1A1 Thompson FOIA, I have a letter transfer of a live gun from a District Attorney's office.


Is the letter of transfer out of the DA’s office under the Disrict Attorney’s offices letter head?I had a partial redacted form included with the FOIA paperwork on a Thompson that appears to have left a military installation to a PD in the late 1950’s. Live submachinegun too.

Cool stuff...
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#8 DZelenka

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 11:06 AM

In my M1A1 Thompson FOIA, I have a letter transfer of a live gun from a District Attorney's office.


Is the letter of transfer out of the DA’s office under the Disrict Attorney’s offices letter head?I had a partial redacted form included with the FOIA paperwork on a Thompson that appears to have left a military installation to a PD in the late 1950’s. Live submachinegun too.

Cool stuff...

I will check. Memory isn't as good as it once was.


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#9 fifthmdec

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 03:28 PM

Copy that, the inevitable AGE factor...
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#10 fifthmdec

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 03:47 PM

I just remembered, I had a copy of the original Form 1 registration on the Russian Ppsh 41 brought back by the Navy veteran after his time in Korea. Even though we sold it as a reactivation on a Form 2 a few years back.

He procured the submachine in 1951.
Registration was done at the U.S. Navy, U.S. Courthouse, Albuquerque, NM.
On November 19, 1962.
Stated in box 11 on the Form 1, this firearm has been rendered unserviceable by steel welding the chamber shut and by welding the barrel solidly to the receiver.
It was stamped non willful violation approval recommended, December 11, 1962, Assistant Regional Commissioner, AT&T.
Followed by his signature in box 16.

Final approval was December 19,1962 by the then Director, Alcohol and Tabacco Tax Division Dwight E. Avis.

Still not sure if there is another sheet or form as in the downloadable PDF that I included in this post...
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