351 Win Photo

[jim c 351]

Here's a couple photos of my M07 Win..

Jim C

 

[OCM]

Real nice ! Looks like a circa 1957 model with the hook operating sleeve tip and buttsock the same . ( used on the police rifle ) Got a fortune in shells too.

Class act.

Appreciate the photos.

 

OCM

[jim c 351]

Real nice ! Looks like a circa 1957 model with the hook operating sleeve tip and buttsock the same . ( used on the police rifle ) Got a fortune in shells too.

Class act.

Appreciate the photos.

 

OCM

 

OCM,

The 351 is #54921. I don't know if it was made in the 1950s or just assembled from prewar parts in the 50s. In my opinion the gun that killed the 07 was the M1 carbine, which the government passed out for free to departments. Not much reason for WRA to try to sell the expensive 07 when they could get carbines for free.

Thanks for commenting.

Jim C

[dalbert]

Jim,

 

I really like it. I looked at a pocket book of Winchester serial numbers, and it indicated your rifle was one of 4000 assembled in 1958 from previously produced parts. It said production from 1943 to 1957 was intermittent. That pocket book has been known to have some errors, so maybe double check with other sources to be sure.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[AlanDavid]

I have got one made around 1915, with the 10 round magazine. It is London proof marked and would have been shipped to Winchester's British agent, London Armoury Company, 31 Bury Street, St James's, London. The Royal Flying Corps purchased 120 between late 1914 and 1916. My example has no military markings unfortunatly.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Alan David

Sydney

[jim c 351]

I have got one made around 1915, with the 10 round magazine. It is London proof marked and would have been shipped to Winchester's British agent, London Armoury Company, 31 Bury Street, St James's, London. The Royal Flying Corps purchased 120 between late 1914 and 1916. My example has no military markings unfortunatly.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Alan David

Sydney

 

Alan,

Very interesting. Do you know if your 351 was brought back from France or London. Is it possible it was used in the Royal Flying Corp and not stamped with military marks.

Its hard to imagine a civilian sale in London in 1915.

Thanks for commenting.

Jim C

[OCM]

Henwood has the ( estimated ) 1956 run ending at 53600 for a total of 450, 4900 in 1957 ending in 58500. That and the sleeve tip PLUS I have a picture of # 54996 ( 1957) that looks like yours with the NEW, for 1957, Sling swivel on the forearm.

1957 production would be my call.

I assume then it has the checkered steel buttplate too, used on the police version for 1957.

 

Yes, I would probably agree about the Mi, the 07 was expensive and pretty much for law enforcement use, the private dude couldn't afford one. Expensive deer gun.

 

Thanks for sharing,

 

OCM

 

I'm quite certain you've seen this, but again, the Dillinger?lebman conversions in Tucson. ( one actually may be untouched coming from a robbery in Auburn Indiana )

 

OCM

[Waldo]

I have # 52742 I have had it for close to 30 years. Looks just like yours I have only shot it a couple of times. I have 6 or 7 boxes of ammo. One of these days, I am going to take it out and shoot it again.

[AlanDavid]

Jim C 351

 

I bought my .351 in New Zealand. The story I got was that the rifle had come from HMS Vindictive which saw massive action at Zeebruger in 1918.I had heard this anecdotal story before and have since heard of a reference in a book to Winchester's being in the bridge house of HMS Vindictive, although these may have been Model 1892 SRC 44/40's which the British Admiralty purchased 20,000 of in 1915, or Winchester Model 1894 SRC's in 30WCF which the Admiralty purchased 5,000 of also in 1915. I am still trying to track down this reference source. I bought the rifle and not the story, but being London proofed and made about 1915 it is of the type that would have been on HMS Vindictive if this story is actually true. The 120 rifles that were purchased from late 1914 to 1916 (along with 78,000 rounds of ammo) may have been purchased by the Admiralty and issued to the Royal Naval Air Service, not just the Royal Flying Corps as I said in my previous post. They may have been factory fitted with a canvas case catcher.See picture of one in the Cody collection - I don't think this is a British contact rifle though.

 

Other than reference to the rifles in an RFC or RNAS training manual on arial gunnery, which I got from the RAF Museum Library in Hendon London, I have seen virtually no other references to them in records at the National Archives in Kew, London.

 

With my rifle having only London commercial proof marks, there is no proof it saw military service, and most likely it did not. However, I have never seen or heard of a British military marked 1907 (from WW1) so it is quite possible the examples that saw service were never military marked, marking at this time was a bit hit and miss.

 

Surprisingly the Model 1907 was a moderatly popular civilian purchase in Britain at this time. I have seen many examples sold by the Army & Navy Co-Op Stores Limited during this period. These sales show up in the ledger books of this organistion which are available to members of the public through the University of Glasgow Archives Department. The Army & Navy were a major retailer of small arms (amongst other things) and are thought to account for between 10% and 25% of sales by the British gun trade in their hayday.

 

Regards

 

Alan David

Sydney

[AlanDavid]

Another little known use of the Winchester Model 1907 .351 self loader, was it being purchased by the Ist American Motorized Squadron, which was a Home Guard unit of about 60 or 70 American civilians in London during the war. These men had business interests in the UK and wanted to do there bit in defending the country they had chosen to live and work in. They were for the most part wealthy men and purchased everything they needed in Britain with the exception of powerful cars and trucks impoerted from the USA along with their small arms , which consisted of Winchester 1907's and Colt 1914 machine guns, calibre unknown. Interestingly, they were reported at the time to have imported 60 odd 'Tommy guns'. I have yet to see a single photograph where a Thompson can be seen. I have seen pictures and film showing the Winchester Model 1907 and pictures of at least half a dozen Colt 1914's; these guys were better armed than the British army! In fact they were officialy assumed into the British Order of Battle, so that if Germany did succsed in conquering London, they would be a lawfull military entity and less likley to be shot as armed civilians.

 

You can see a news real clip of these blokes parading in London in front of Winston Churchill and his wife on the British Pathe web site, type in 'American Home Guard London' and it should come up.

 

A Winchester Model 1907 with the red band painted on the fore end with '351' stencilled in black is in the collection of the Imperial War Museum. I would not be surprised if this was one of the Squadron rifles, but there is no way to prove it. I hope to send as much information on the Ist American Squadron to my contact at the IWM with a view to a display being put on about this little known aspect of history. I am sure it would have much appeal to American visitors to the capitol.

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

[jim c 351]

I have # 52742 I have had it for close to 30 years. Looks just like yours I have only shot it a couple of times. I have 6 or 7 boxes of ammo. One of these days, I am going to take it out and shoot it again.

Waldo,

If you can, post a photo of your 07 and ammo. Maybe we can start a 351 beauty contest.

Jim C

[bmarvin]

I have #50242 with the Books hard case.

Brian

 

 

[jim c 351]

Alan,

It looks like I really started something with a photo. If you continue to provide this extremely interesting info you will be responsible for increasing demand for the 351 in the US.

I knew that the French bought a bunch of 351s and even explored the possibility of obtaining Thompsons in 351 after the Great War. I believe the French wanted them to arm aircraft until the Lewis caught on.

I did not know that the 351 was popular in England. Since BSA was the main producer of the Lewis , I wouldn't think that England would have wanted the 07 for aircraft use.

I am also somewhat surprised that the Royal Navy would have bought Winchesters rather that issuing Enfield rifles.

The story of the American volunteers was another surprise.

Bottom line, the WRA M1907 has a lot more history than that of a cops and robbers gun of the 20s & 30's.

Keep the info coming.

I would guess that your 351 is stored in NZ rather than Sidney. Next time you get your hands on it ,take a few photos and post here. Like I said to Waldo, maybe we can have a 351 beauty contest.

Thanks for the interesting info.

Jim C

[jim c 351]

bmarvin,

Nice 07 and nice case.

Whats the story on the Books hard case. Never heard of such cases. My rifle isn't tapped for a tang sight. I wonder how long they were so equipped?

Jim C

[OCM]

Henwood has the Lyman #1A tang sight as reaching it's peak popularity in 1905. All self-loaders were drilled and tapped for them They put out an improved sight in 1907, the Lyman 41. By thye 1930s the sight was way out of date. Book has photos of both too.

 

The Forgotten Winchesters, John Henwood.

[jim c 351]

Henwood has the Lyman #1A tang sight as reaching it's peak popularity in 1905. All self-loaders were drilled and tapped for them They put out an improved sight in 1907, the Lyman 41. By thye 1930s the sight was way out of date. Book has photos of both too.

 

The Forgotten Winchesters, John Henwood.

OCM,

Thanks for the info.

What about the Books hardcase. Any mention of that in Henwoods book???

Jim C

[OCM]

Good question, Winchester listed 3 cases for thier rifles, no Book hardcase.

 

OCM

[Waldo]

I have # 52742 I have had it for close to 30 years. Looks just like yours I have only shot it a couple of times. I have 6 or 7 boxes of ammo. One of these days, I am going to take it out and shoot it again.

Waldo,

If you can, post a photo of your 07 and ammo. Maybe we can start a 351 beauty contest.

Jim C

I will see if I can get my son to help me. I am not real good with cameras and computers.

[Sandman1957]

Just got into the Winchester 1907 351 game. SN 13820. Know little to nothing about these guns. Any and all info very appreciated. I have ordered reloading dies, 100 brass cases and 1000 FMJ RN 180 Gr "bullets" . Will be reloading very shortly.

 

Can anyone tell me year of manufacture?

What would be a good / recommended reload for the 180gr bullet.

 

Photos maybe next week, gun is in the mancave at home (not Norfolk).

 

Semper Fi

Sandman1957

[dalbert]

I look forward to the photos...This rifle is still on my short list. I've come close a couple of times. "Full Auto 45" has had several of these that I've considered, but just haven't had the cash at the right place and time.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[jim c 351]

Sandman,

I think you may find this interesting. What 180 gr bullets did you buy and where did you buy them??

Jim C

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/22496

 

PS Made in 1908

Edited October 21, 2014 by jim c 351

[OCM]

Year would be 1908 production, 5829 manufactured that year-

 

Here is mine, more historical photos tomorrow from the Dillinger gang, Tucson, AZ. 1934. Friend was just there recently and got to get it out and inspect and photos at the Tucson PD.

 

Jim C is the guy here on reloading etc. He'll chime in soon. Has a nice video of himself firing his 07.

 

 

Sandy

 

 

[Sandman1957]

Bought the components from Grafs as well, Picked up a thousand "bullets" to reload, along with a hundred unfired cases.

Since I work out of town during the week, having adult signatures is problematic for "loaded" ammo.

 

May order some already loaded though, just to be able to fire it sooner.

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

 

 

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/22372

[bmarvin]

If anyone is looking for a 07, Check Point Charlies has one.

http://www.checkpointcharlies.com/ecommerce/long-guns/u-s-military-guns/winchester-07s-l-351-military-and-police.html

[jim c 351]

Sandman,

First off if you haven't bought the book, " Winchester Model 07,self-loading, 351caliber" by Leonard Speckin, I suggest you Buy It Now. His number is,--517-881-9028.

 

Loading data for the 351 is scarce, but there is some in the Lyman #45 Handbook. I don't know how to scan and email but if you send a mailing address, I'll send a copy of the page.

351 bullets have been unavailable since the 1960s so this is a real break for anyone, either owning an 07 or thinking about buying one.

Post some pics when you get home.

You now own the gun the police should have used instead of the Thompson. With a 10 shot mag it was the perfect police rifle of its era and would still do the job today,

Congratulations.

Jim C

PS one of the forum contributors just bought a near mint 351 Win at the OGCA show this past weekend. I don't know is he knows how to post pics, but it was beautiful.

Edited October 21, 2014 by jim c 351