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M1 to M2 Conversion Trigger Group System Unknown To Me


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#1 Annihilator

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 12:41 PM

Have you ever seen this select fire conversion ?

 

3 positions: safe, semi full

 

It is a Winchester made trigger group system

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#2 jim c 351

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:39 PM

From the pics I haven't a clue how it works, but I suspect a halfass conversion.

Keep in mind that when firing FA you don't want the hammer released until the bolt is fully locked. That's why the Inland system releases the hammer only when the slide is near the end of travel.

To do otherwise run the risk of the bolt not being fully locked when it fires. Thus destroying the bolt and damaging the receiver.

Jim C


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#3 HB of CJ

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:49 PM

Also wondering how it safely times.


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#4 thirtyround

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:35 PM

Annihilator, 

    Can you take pics and post of each setting position (Safe / Semi / Full).  Any history on this "system"?  Have you fired this system on a rifle?  I had read somewhere in regard to Lt Winters and the Band of Brothers statements that their armorers had converted their M1's to M2's before the invasion jump. 

    I'm intrigued as to how they did it,  this possible way (in which I don't fully understand the design) or early T17 type kits??  


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#5 M17ap

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 09:02 AM

That is s GI armors conversion M1 to m2 they made around a 100 or so In Germany late in the war. Timing works off the rear of the firing pin. The rear of the pin is a lever that trips the bent sheet metal to release the sear and the hammer to fire when the bolt is closed. Pretty rare bird as I only saw one back in the seventies.Not a cheap conversion. They took the trouble to harden the sheet metal sear release. As I remember it was very reliable. Ruth's book on carbines has a sketch on a piece of paper in one of his carbine books with a small description. Rich
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#6 Annihilator

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:48 AM

Thanks Rich for these informations and descriptions

The carbine was found by a friend of mine in Belgium. It is an early type highwood,  flat bolt, flip sight, no bayonet lug Inland carbine. Yes, the bolt presses the metal plate to the side once it is closed and only the the hammer will be released. Pretty smart device.

He found another one like that in Belgium about 10 years ago.

Pierre

 

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#7 dalbert

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 10:56 AM

Very cool stuff.  I'm glad it was posted.  I'm going to cross-post a link on the Carbine Club Board.

 

David Albert

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#8 dalbert

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 11:16 AM

I found the reference in Larry Ruth's books...War Baby II, pages 827 to 829.  

 

David Albert

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#9 HB of CJ

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:23 PM

Thank you all.  Just learned something new.  Now will try to understand it.  Sounds like it worked OK but I can not help but wonder how safe it was?  The Rube Goldberg method of the USUAL M2 function parts DOES ALLOW for some necessary, (vital?) SAFETY in letting the SLIDE FREE TRAVEL quite a bit forward AFTER the bolt locks up but BEFORE the Slide trips the Rocker which then trips the Disconnecter which in turns trips the Sear which in turn trips the Hammer.

 

With the pictured conversion what "times" the hammer drop?  Just the firing pin?  With just the bolt hopefully locking up?  Seems to me a dangerous way to run things, but this is just me.  I could have it wrong also and I am sure I am missing something here.  Some help because I do not know.  This conversion sounds like to me a disaster waiting to happen.  The standard M2 method of operation in is crazy complicated but it seems to be safe with good case length and head space.

 

Respectfully.

 

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.


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#10 Annihilator

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 02:58 AM

To me, it is a collector's item and I found the response to my question here on the board. I read the War Baby article and was very pleased to find it there in it's historical context.

Pierre


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#11 thirtyround

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:33 AM

Interesting and historical.  Sorry do not have a copy of War Baby, so question, In what way is it physically manipulated or positioned for semi and full auto fire, can the operator choose ?  I can see where the bolt would move the arm out of the way allowing the hammer to drop, does it stay in full auto only until its removed?  I'm assuming the safe/fire switch is still used as that function on the outside of the trigger housing


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#12 Annihilator

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 04:08 PM

The so-called safety switch is also the selector switch: safe (forward) semi (down) and full (rearward). In the full auto mode it fires only as long as you press the trigger.

Pierre


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#13 jim c 351

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 07:28 PM

The so-called safety switch is also the selector switch: safe (forward) semi (down) and full (rearward). In the full auto mode it fires only as long as you press the trigger. Pierre------------------------ Pierre, Did you determine the above statement by actually firing a carbine with this group installed.?? Or is that how it is suppose to function according to what is written?? I don't have the Larry Ruth book so I don't know who made the conversion unit and how many were made and for whom?? It seems way too complicated for US Army ordnance units to make. Jim C


Edited by jim c 351, 21 November 2017 - 07:29 PM.

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#14 Annihilator

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 07:24 AM

Jim
I checked the safety selector function and positions simply by pressing the trigger while operating the bolt
So, no i did not test fire
Pierre
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#15 Meckanic

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 09:52 PM

According to War Baby "Comes Home" there are more parts needed and modifications to internal parts to make this work. You are just seeing one part of it.

Edited by Meckanic, 03 February 2018 - 10:04 AM.

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#16 NFA amnesty

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:37 PM

I love it, they put a thompson selector switch on it.   Amazing how they figured this out and proves nothing is GI proof.  


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#17 Meckanic

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 06:31 PM

Pierre,
Is there any way you could get a picture of the other side of the trigger housing? The safety has a Thompson safety handle but I measured a safety and it would not work. If not, that's ok. Just want to see how the safety was made.
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#18 Annihilator

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 12:17 PM

Greetings Meckanic
It is not a Thompson safety it is purpose made and has the same diameter as the original safety
You will not see something particular on the other side and the trigger system is the only modification
All the other parts are in their original configuration
Greetings
Pierre
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