OldFalGuy Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Fellas, There are some drums on Subguns- Advertised as Colts- would appreciate some input as I would like one for display. 2 at $1300 both have nickel rotors-no serial numbers, the last one doesn't and suspect its a worchester drum but need help here- don't want to ignore the experience here and make a mistake. http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.c...query=retrieval I have pics if you need me to email them to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 That is $1.3 per, right? Here is a link to his album if they allow hot links..... If no picture appears just click on the red X or whatever appears...... http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/pc40e9a8fcfd6c39a76c7f947ee172f15/f0330dba.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 OldFalGuy, Yes, the drums and mags that Michael (colttommygunner) is selling are as advertised. I looked at his pics on Sturmgewehr a week ago when clicking on the link worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFalGuy Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 I thought it was a correct drum but was far from sure and felt it was a fair price- At least now I will have a chance to compare the function of an early drum and a WWII drum- I don't have a post war L drum. He also has a 4th drum, numbered for 3x more dinero which has the real nice polished appearance- It the one that Z3 is showing in another thread- lots of ammo circle mark in the drum- very nice lotsa dollars too. I suppose its an earlier pattern, I don't have the book yet and not sure which one is betst to start out with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Is $1,300.00 a good buy? I tired to sell my NY Drum for less than that with not even an offer and it is a garunteed runner that was restored by Merle........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 It depends if it is a Worcester or a Colt. Saying it is a N.Y. drum is like referring to WWII 1928 TSMG's as Bridgeport Thompson's. There is a difference between a Savage and an AO. The former made in Utica, New York and the latter made in Bridgeport, CT. Is $1,300 a good buy? There was a Colt third pattern drum with pre WWII case for $950. I think Cincylane? bought and posted it here. It had a non-nickel Worcester rotor, but the covers were Colt. Is a correct nickel rotor worth $500 more? Probably. Autoweapons has been trying to sell a similar drum like the $1300 one for $2,000 for ever. Numbered Colt L drums are a whole new ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 What would the value of a Colt "No. ______" drum be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFalGuy Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 (edited) Now where is that vibrating pencil so I can put some numbers on the $1300 one... just kidding- Arthur, aren't the numbered ones 1st or 2nd pattern?? I figure this $1300 one will do fine to go with my 21AC since it is my understanding that the numbered drums were NOT numbered to any gun- while it would be "nice" to have such corresponding numbered gun and drum they really would not be considered "matching". Which is a shame as that would be about the only reason I see spending $4K on an L drum or $6K+ on a Colt "C" drum- ONe other thing Guys, I am looking for a COlt nickel buttstock oiler- Anyone have a spare or know where I can acquire one? Jerry at Recon had 5 2 weeks ago but nada when I contacted him yesterday. Edited February 20, 2006 by OldFalGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Philasteen, The incoming WWII drums doesn't seem to affect their prices. Considering that they have the correct rotors and covers, and non-dented or pitted in original finish: $3,500 to $4,000 (?) for the few and far between seen numbered matching Colt L drum, $2,500 to $3,000 for mismatched numbered, $1,500 to $2,000 (?) for "NO" marked sans numbers, and $1,000 to $1,500 (?) for Third version that has neither the "NO," or a number, that is sometimes mistaken for a Worcester drum. I think Sig conducted a small survey of Colt L drums for sale, but there was too large a gap between those in poor condition and "new in the box" to get a handle on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 OK Arty how bout the skinny on my drum... The spring was wasted on this puppy so The Drum Doctor did his thing and replaced the spring but doing it discolors the nickel rotor so he had to have it renickled..... All the rest of the finish is original.... So does the repair kill the collectible aspect of the drum? http://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/NYDrum1.jpg http://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/NYDrum3.jpg http://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/NYDrum2.jpghttp://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/NYDrum4.jpg http://mail.roadfly.com/z3bigdaddy/NYDrum5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Big D, I think I see the problem. How much less than $1,300 did you try to get for it? It is probably in the $800 range. The covers are third pattern Colt, but the rotor, aside from the replating, doesn't appear to be a Colt drum rotor. The hub is of the sort on Worcester or Seymour WWII drums. You may have been the second person to replate the rotor that was originally a black oxide finish. The inside of the drum looks too clean to have had a rotor used to the point were the spring broke. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/ColtHubCU.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFalGuy Posted February 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Still a darn nice looking drum- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Guess I need to put in a call to Merle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Feb 21 2006, 01:26 AM)Guess I need to put in a call to Merle..... Z3, Arthur is correct, the rotor hub on the rear is not rounded like the earlier Colt variation drums. I think his assessment is correct, it is a Worcester or AO Bridgeport rotor that has been nickeled. The covers are Colt era. OldFalGuy, The drum you just purchased would be correct for your 1921AC Model. The drum you bought was introduced after the 1928 Navy Model was offered as an option. That is why the winding instructions were revised to include the 1921 and 1928 Models. Yes, you're correct, the numbered drums were not shipped to match the serial numbers of the guns. The numbering was simply to match the cover with the body after they were blued. The numbered drums were the first pattern drums and only include the winding instructions for the 1921 Model, "Wind to 11 Clicks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 QUOTE (gijive @ Feb 21 2006, 07:14 AM) QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Feb 21 2006, 01:26 AM)Guess I need to put in a call to Merle..... Z3, Arthur is correct, the rotor hub on the rear is not rounded like the earlier Colt variation drums. I think his assessment is correct, it is a Worcester or AO Bridgeport rotor that has been nickeled. Not challenging anyones answers but..... The nickel plate on the rotor looked original when I bought the drum... I'm not smart enuff to notice the shaft.... Is there any reason that Merle may have needed to replace it when he repaired it? As for it not being used enuff to be broken.... Since when do you need use and not abuse to break something? Now I need to dig up some pics of it when I bought it to compare..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif When I posted the original pics, now gone, nobody said a thing about it being wrong..... Original posting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Bid D, Of course misuse is responsible for breakage just as over use, especially by PD's, but judging by the condition inside, the SFPD broke it when they dropped it soon after purchasing it, or the guy you bought it from substituted a shaky rotor for the Colt one. Was the rotor working when you bought it? You said it was in perfect condition aside from a couple of dents and the SFPD scratches. If it broke while you were using it are you saying that you misused it? If the pics you posted in 04 were as detailed as the ones you posted now, I think we would have caught the hub and rotor issue then. But you still only paid $500 for it plus Merle's fees. How much could that be? If he just nickel plated a WWII rotor and substitute it for the Colt one then you do need to call him. But if the rotor looks the same as the one you have pics of from 04, then you still only paid $500 for Colt covers. Maybe the seller was more knowledgeable on drum prices than we previously gave him credit for. Did you buy it for resale purposes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Feb 21 2006, 12:47 PM)Not challenging anyones answers but..... The nickel plate on the rotor looked original when I bought the drum... Z3, The original Colt drums I have do not have nickel plated rotors. The rotors are nickel colored metal, but they are not plated. It is possible that someone may have nickel plated a blue Worcester or AO Bridgeport rotor to make the drum more original looking or to increase the original sale price. I'll try to post some pictures later to show the differences in the rotor hubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 gijive, Good point! This is why it's difficult to fake a Colt rotor by plating a WWII one, aside from the hub differences. Nickel has always been the descriptive term for some of the Colt TSMG parts when the oil bottle may be the only truly nickeled part. Here is an example: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/autoweaponsnickelrotor.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 QUOTE (gijive @ Feb 21 2006, 01:30 PM) QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Feb 21 2006, 12:47 PM)Not challenging anyones answers but..... The nickel plate on the rotor looked original when I bought the drum... Z3, The original Colt drums I have do not have nickel plated rotors. The rotors are nickel colored metal, but they are not plated. It is possible that someone may have nickel plated a blue Worcester or AO Bridgeport rotor to make the drum more original looking or to increase the original sale price. I'll try to post some pictures later to show the differences in the rotor hubs. Right exactly.... Now I HAVE to find the original pics.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif The color looked exactly the same as...... Arty, It was broken when I bought it just didn't know it.... I hadn't been in the Thompson thing very long at that point and wasn't smart enuff to even know what I bought then let alone now...... That is why I go to the experts... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/hail.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Z3, Here are some close-up pictures of the difference between the rear rotor hub on the Worcester drums (blued rotor) and an original Colt era numbered drum (nickel colored rotor). I hope this helps clarify what Arthur and I were referring to. http://members.aol.com/gijive/Drums1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFalGuy Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Let me ask the question this way- What caused the early drum rotorss to be the color they are if they are not plated- Are the 21 internals nickeled in some manner or is this another example of merely color without any reason or function? I thought the nickel internals that cost an arm and a leg today were partly responsible (in addition to the lighter actuator) for the increased ROF of the 21 vs. the 28 and all subsequent models. Its hard for me to see the difference between plated and coated as "something" caused these parts to NOT be blued and are certainly never described as being "in the white" http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif oh, for my own edification- If you could only buy 2 books on the Thompson what would they be and could I get them autographed? Thanks for the education Professors' http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/hail.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 "Z3, Here are some close-up pictures of the difference between the rear rotor hub on the Worcester drums (blued rotor) and an original Colt era numbered drum (nickel colored rotor). I hope this helps clarify what Arthur and I were referring to." Actually there is no confusion, I understood from the beginning... All I am saying is that it had a nickel rotor to start with, not nickel plated, and that I do not remember if the hub was right when I sent it for repair or not... Honest I'm not confused nor have I been..... I just need to find my pics of the drum before I had it repaired is all..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 QUOTE (OldFalGuy @ Feb 21 2006, 10:42 PM) Are the 21 internals nickeled in some manner or is this another example of merely color without any reason or function? I thought the nickel internals that cost an arm and a leg today were partly responsible (in addition to the lighter actuator) for the increased ROF of the 21 vs. the 28 and all subsequent models. The 1921 "nickel" internals are in the frame, not the receiver. These have no bearing on the ROF. The actuator, pilot and buffer are not "nickel." The bolt is bright. Cox's book and Frank's book. The latter signature much easier to obtain than the former unless it already is so inscribed. Hill's pictures and cut lines has caused so much confusion on L drums (specifically pages 331, 332, 333) that until he puts out an addendum, his book misses the cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFalGuy Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Sorry Arthur I meant frame- are these internals any more or less "nickel" than the rotor is nickel? Thanks for the book authors- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 QUOTE (OldFalGuy @ Feb 22 2006, 12:45 AM)Sorry Arthur I meant frame- are these internals any more or less "nickel" than the rotor is nickel? Thanks for the book authors- OldFalGuy, Not sure exactly what you mean by, "any more or less nickel than the rotor." I believe you said you had a Colt 1921AC Model correct? The sear, sear lever, rocker, disconnector and trip should be a dull nickel/gray color, not blued. If your gun has these features, with no contractor markings, they are correct for your gun. They have no bearing on the rate of fire. The nickel rotors on Colt era drums can range from dull gray to more silver colored based on the care given the drum over the years. Sometimes, lack of cleaning can cause the rotors to tarnish to a dull gray, similar to the picture Arthur posted. Others appear shiny if they have been cleaned and polished periodically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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