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Pre-86 Ownership as Fulfilling as Transferable Ownership?


tricky9914
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Ok, this is a strange philosophical question that I thought would make an interesting point of conversation. So here goes:

 

As an 01 FFL/SOT, we obviously have the ability to obtain pre-86 samples, which are (generally) priced at about half the value of their transferable counterparts. That being said: as collectors, do you feel adequately fulfilled having pre-86 samples as a "hole fillers" in your collections? The samples come with alot more "strings attached" than do transferables... You can't leave them to your kids (unless they are FFL's themselves), you open your private inventory to ATF audits if you keep these pre-86 samples at home. etc...

 

I have thought about getting into pre-86 samples to complete the "more expensive" gaps in my WWII MG collection (MG42, Bren, BAR etc), I mean, why pay 30k for a transferable BAR when you can get a sample for 10k? Or 40k for a transferable Bren when you could get a sample for 16k? I mean they are the exact same gun sans the transfer status after-all... I don't know why, but I feel like I would never really "own" the MG if it were not transferable. I know this is weird but just wondering if anyone else has ever wrestled with this idea?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

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I have several pre 86s, most whose condition would put them in the top 10% of collectibles if they were C&R. Am I concerned about ATF stopping by for a visit, nope, with a search warrant any law enforcement agency can stop by if they feel the need so I find the excuse of pre 86s opening that door rather mute. When it comes to leaving them to heirs, another non worry for me, I have none that would be interested in owning them. The pre 86s I own I bought for my enjoyment which is the primary reason I have for owning any firearm in my collection.

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I actually find that to be an interesting question. I have one left over from SOT days which is not subject to inspection at all, so that point is a non issue. It is likely the only gun in my collection that has lost value over at least the 10 yrs I've had it. It's a rare gun (in it's original form), but you can buy non- C+R builds these days that actually perform better (it's suppressed). While it is interesting and I learned that most of the stories about how great the performance was were false repeated rumors often published, in hindsight I would have passed since in addition to being a financial loser, it will be a PITA to get rid of it since it's currently a taxable long wait transfer. At some point if I liquidate I'll likely pick up another SOT to make it easier, but that's not without it's own pitfalls and sacrifice in time.

The other guns you mention I have as transferables and I personally think that's the way to go even if you can't get them all for cheap. Lot's of guys have gone post sample and I've witnessed several collections vanish, but then those guys usually fade out of the industry all together, since they were never really gun collectors in the first place, MG's were just a passing phase.

If you have the guns in a business (as you should if you're an SOT) the business continues after you drop the SOT and the guns stay there then your heirs would be able to take over the business without any transfers. My heirs all have interests in cash for other purposes since they are in different stages of life with different priorities and likely when pressed as to keeping MG's after someones death, everyone will want the money, no one will want your collection as it sits. Guys fantasize about their boys taking over their stuff, but it rarely happens and they all get liquidated. HTH

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you open your private inventory to ATF audits if you keep these pre-86 samples at home. etc

No you don't. The inspector can only examine the safe/storage area that contains your bound book inventory so keep a separate safe for your personal guns and it can't be inspected.

 

it will be a PITA to get rid of it since it's currently a taxable long wait transfer

It will actually be relatively quick, since you can only transfer it to another dealer, it will be a form 4 to dealer and those are taking around 2-3 months lately. Edited by b_san
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I would assume that you leave your possessions to your heirs in your will including pre-86 MGs? Say my wife for instance gets them in my will she would just have them sold to a SOT...

Yeah that's basically how it would work, the executor would still be able to sell the pre-samples to a SOT on behalf of the heir(s). Assuming you're a sole proprietor, they would transfer to the buyer on a tax paid form 4, as the FFL is closed when a sole proprietor dies. If your heir is a (or applies for their) FFL/SOT, then they could transfer to the heir on a tax free Form 5.

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You have a very interesting question. I totally understand by what you are saying by "owning" the transferable. My guns are transferable and I think that I "own" them more than say someone that "owns" a pre-sample. With that being said, when I die there is no one to pass them to or anyone that I know that would want them so I guess at the end of the day we only "own" them for a short time anyway. It kind of depends on why you are buying them. Is it for the fun, for the "investment", maybe to pass along to a family member? Remember, most family members will probably not want your collection. Most kids never do they would take the money. I bought mine for the historical aspect and because they are fun to shoot and it is like looking at a work of art. I fully expect them to be banned one day in the not too distant future so I expect to "lose" all the money I spent on them but it was fun while it lasted. I guess you also have to ask yourself do you really "own" your house? Try not paying the property tax and see how far you get with that so I guess we never really get to "own" a lot of things in life.

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One advantage of pre-Mays is they are REAL variations not conversions; MP5, UZI etc.

No always true with post samples as many were made up by C2s from part kits.

 

I agree that most sons/daughters of people, mine and others I know, are not interested in machine guns, only the cash they will bring for new cars and vacations. Maybe because in may cases they grew up with them.

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For all practical purposes, some original guns are only available as pre-may samples. For example, there are just a handful of C&R Dutch AR10s in circulation and only a small fraction of those are the early Cuban/Guatemalan/Sudanese models. However, there are maybe a hundred or so Guatemalan pre-may sample AR10s in circulation. Those pre-may AR10s are easy to find and there always seems to be one or two for sale.
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I had heard about 2 years ago that pre-86 DS's were going to be amnestied and re-regulated as transferables. Must of been baloney or wishful thinking.....

That's an interesting thought... If there were an amnesty, would pre-samples be included? Or is it, in order to be registered in an amnesty, the firearm would still have to have been brought into the country before 68 (if that could be proven)?

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