Colt made M1 prototype?

[buzz]

I heard that Colt made a prototype M1 during WWII in order to determine if it would be profitable to manufacture them

 

Has anyone ever seen this gun?

[Colt Chopper]

This one ?

[Colt Chopper]

Few More

[Freddy]

Interesting, thanks for the pictures! What about the screw that seems to be holding the metal bar for attaching the handguard? Was that an improvement to make barrel changes easier? Or a modification done sometime later? Also, I notice the sight is not riveted on, but seems to be held by screws... Were there changes to the design done by Colt?

Edited July 29, 2015 by Freddy

[emmagee1917]

Colt already produced the MG40 ( .30 cal ANM2 ) . Some of these had a BAR / M1919A4 / M2HB style rear sight added for flexable mountings . These were screwed onto a VERY thin top plate using a VERY fine thread pitch . Could withstand 30-06 recoil @ 1200 RPM or so . Would prob'ly be good for a .45 on a Thompson with it's much thicker reciever.

So.... could be very original .

Chris

[TD.]

Interesting pictures. I am puzzled as to why anyone would think Colt's had the time and capacity to manufacture the M1A1 Thompson during World War II. And how Colt's obtained the drawings from Savage and/or Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport necessary to actually perform such a feat. Colt's would not have to build a prototype to determine profitability, especially for a government contract.

[Colt Chopper]

To my understanding, it is a "Pattern Room" gun, here is a couple more pics,

Edited July 29, 2015 by Colt Chopper

[MauserMatt]

What's the story on that particular gun Colt Chopper? Where would it be located?

[MARK2112]

Huge money no doubt.......1 of 1

[Colt Chopper]

It is presently located in Pennsylvania, and is for sale, It is not mine, nor do I have personnal knowledge of the provenance of this firearm.

 

I have done previous business with the dealer who is in posession of it and can provide contact information if anyone is interested. (PM me)

 

Be for warned, the price he is asking is beyond what top 1921's are presently bringing.

 

It is an interesting piece none the less.

[MauserMatt]

Ah, gotcha... Very interesting... I'm just glad it's a transferable. Not that I'm going to buy it, but glad it's out in the wild so to speak...

 

Thanks for bringing this up buzz.. I had no idea it existed..

[buzz]

I would not buy that gun without some kind of provenance

 

there are lots of weird no-name hobby guns out there

 

and making fake collector guns is an industry unto itself

Edited July 29, 2015 by buzz

[gunhistorian]

Man! This is a real "caveat emptor" piece! I am wondering about the alleged manufacturer "Colt Mfg" stamped in various places on the gun. . . I'd think the name (if an original piece) should be Colt's Pat. F.A. Co. or something similar. Also, when did hex screws become either "invented" or manufactured and are they commonly placed on firearms of that era?

[Dolphinvet]

Without provenance it's just an M1 Thompson. A FOIA search might help, but it might not too.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Dolphinvet

[laurencen]

the first socket head screw was a Canadian, named Robertson around 1908, not sure when he went into production but had Henry Ford used the square drive style (Robertson screw) possibly the Phillips or cross head style would be less available and drywall screws would have a square indent, personally the square drive is way easier than the Phillips and more positive to tighten.

 

Allen in 1910 produced the hex drive now referred to as the Allen screw so at least this type of screw existed when it went to Colt

[mnshooter]

With the almost new appearance of the hex button heads, and the tarnished appearance of the rear sight, I would say those screws are not original to the gun.

[laurencen]

not saying these screws or even the head style was around when this gun was made but the Allen hex style defiantly was around

[shadycon]

TD; I thought that weapons manufactures had access to gov't approved drawings if they were going to manufacture weapons. Example the M1 carbine made by 11 main contractors and a lot of subcontractors, all parts had to be interchangeable. So if the gov't thought that they need more M1 tsmg's than savage could produce, mayby they made a prototype to be gov't inspected. Then came the greasegun! Just speculation!

[reconbob]

FAKE FAKE FAKE. I welcome anyone who can PROVE that this gun was made by Colt. As TD mentions

that Colt would undertake to make such a gun in the middle of a war is really unbelievable and therefore

should not be believed.

This, to me, is an example of the faker trying too hard - stamping Colt on all sorts of parts. Under close

scrutiny I am sure that the trigger frame, for example, has machining marks identical to Savage or Auto-Ordnance

production. The cutters, feeds, and speeds leave machining marks that are almost like fingerprints and if its

a Colt frame it would have minor differences.

For starters the rear sight on this gun is a semi-auto Kahr Arms rear sight. You can tell by the large radius

at the corners of the cutout that the sight tang is bent up from. Here is an original military sight:

 

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_6129_zps0vnp8rlu.jpg

 

Here is the sight on the "Colt" - its a semi-auto new production Kahr sight:

 

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/M1A_zpss9n6lqem.jpg

 

Another thing that makes no sense is that if this is a "pattern room" gun then the markings on the trigger frame would have

been hand stamped - the FIRE-SAFE, etc. But these marks are done with production dies.

 

This gun may have been made 50 or 60 years ago by some guy having fun in his shop. There are many

guys that do this type of thing. The years go by, they pass away, and the trail is cold and the next generation

comes along and jumps to conclusions.

In my area years ago there was a master gunsmith and faker who made a lot of very rare guns and

accessories. he had no evil intent - he could not afford an original and wanted to have the gun or item

in his collection. He made no attempt to fool anyone - he took pride in showing his collection to visitors

and point out his fake items.

Again, feel free to prove me wrong but there is NO WAY Colt made this thing.

 

Bob

Edited July 31, 2015 by reconbob

[laurencen]

seen lots of sights and never noticed the difference, great comparison, on the original one they punched the 2 holes besides the sight, how was the slots cut, anyone know if it was sheared or cut?

[buzz]

Notice how the hand stamped letter are all different sizes. Wouldn't a company like Colt that makes custom shop guns have had enough stamps on hand to make EXP and MFG the same size as COLT.

 

That looks amateurish

 

 

I'm under the impression that Colt had 3 factories going 24 hours a day making 1911s and 1917 MGs on obsolete tooling and a severely overburdened workforce

 

Would they have wanted to make Thompsons as well? Why make a whole complicated gun like a Thompson when they could just make parts?

[DLansky]

I have looked at several guns that are similarly stamped. this stamping is consistent with the guns that came out of the Colt Pattern Room. I posted pictures of a BAR similarly stamped on the BAR forum. this does not mean that they were necessarily made by Colt (although most of the ones I saw were in fact made by Colt (an M16, a thompson and a BAR). what it does mean is that they were unregistered and in the possession of Colt and when they were sold or traded (or transferred in satisfaction of debts) or otherwise left the premises, the guns were then marked by hand with a serial number and a maker and registered at that time. you can read on line about how Reed Knight filled a grocery cart or two with guns and then each was stamped, registered and approved for transfer on site before he left with them. we can only speculate as to the true maker of this gun. it could have been a Savage gun given to Colt by Auto Ordnance to see if they wanted to tool up to make these during the war--there are many possibilities, but as others have pointed out, it is just speculation.

[buzz]

That was going to be my next question - how does it compare with other authentic samples?

It hardly matters though, without some sort of provenance the only prudent thing for a buyer to do would be consider it a fake until proven otherwise

 

That would put the price down into the WH range

 

fake collector guns are very common, some fakes are so common that they devalued the market for the authentic guns

[reconbob]

Interesting about the other hand-stamped guns. I am still highly skeptical that this gun was made by Colt

machinists in their "pattern" shop. You might be able to convince me that they made the receiver and fitted it

with G.I. parts. But the gun would have a riveted original rear sight and they would have had the equipment to

do it. Its ridiculous for this gun to have a new manufacture Kahr rear sight attached to the receiver with modern

day socket head cap screws. If this is original and authentic it would be worth much more with no sight than

with a Kahr sight.

It would be interesting to see the paperwork. If by chance it was amnesty registered the fact that the form

says Colt is meaningless because back then ATF just processed the forms and didn't check anything. I have

seen many rewelded M1928A1's that are papered as being manufactured by Auto-Ordnance and not the

person that welded them together.

I don't know how you could possibly authenticate this....

 

Bob

[gunhistorian]

Back in the "old days" -- I guess the '60s (early '60s) -- the two biggest types of items faked were "cowboy" guns -- cap and ball Colt pistols and Single Action Armys -- and Lugers. Guess the faking arena has moved to the Class 3 world! As was mentioned above, this might have come out of the Colt "museum" or "pattern room" but that simply shows that the piece was once in possession of Colt's Pat. Fire Arms, not made by them. I doubt that this type of ownership would enhance the value. As Bruce Canfield always cautions: buy the gun, not the story.