German Machineguns vs. US Machineguns WWII Training Film

[azboater]

German guns versus American guns, to me it's purely a matter of honoring our country and soldiers.

I do not own / patronize any German or Jap guns at all!

Simple as that,

Darryl

Totally Respect your feelings on that Darryta,

Besides my Thompson guns, I do own a Vet bringback all matching MP-40 captured at the Battle of the Bulge by a member of the 823rd Tank Destroyer Battalion,30th Infantry Division,

every time I hold, shoot, or look at it, it reminds me of what America's Greatest Generation did for Us in Europe & the Pacific and I do Honor their Service & Sacrifice.

[Got Uzi]

It would be interesting to have a redo of this video using the same guns with new shooters and see how it worked out. Use the same drills/tests then compare the results. Not sure we would need to dress in the GI uniforms tho haha

[azboater]

It would be interesting to have a redo of this video using the same guns with new shooters and see how it worked out. Use the same drills/tests then compare the results. Not sure we would need to dress in the GI uniforms tho haha

Now that is a Great Idea!

[jim c 351]

Fast firing MGs???

Once a few years ago I had a nice conversation with a Marine who served on Guadalcanal.

He told about a time his squad was slated to go on patrol. His issue firearm was a M1903 rifle but he switched with a friend for a Thompson.

At some point they hit a Jap patrol. A firefight ensued and my friend was really enjoying himself until he realize he had just emptied his last mag. Took less than 10 minutes. At that point he was scared shitless. He survived and returned with his 10 LB club.

He said he went back to his M1903 and never again carried a Tommy.

 

Point 2

When I was in basic training our sergeant was conducting an exercise on locating enemy fire. A couple of instructors went up on a over grown weeded hill. They fired M14s with blanks . Out of 30 trainees, no one could identify where the firing was coming from.

The sgt instructed the shooters to switch to FA fire. One short burst and all 30 private knew exactly where the gun was located.

 

What's the moral of the story?

Shooting at people with a MG firing 1500 RPM can be a lot of fun. Until the gun runs out of ammo or 30 privates suddenly open fire with M14s.

Jim C

[huggytree]

 

 

You use the sights? I personally like the hip shooting--without the hopping. The hopping footage is from a Ranger training school early in WWII in Hawaii. I believe at that time our forces were catching up on close combat/jungle training. My guess is the "hopping" would help train the shooter to keep the gun aligned with the line of eyesight when "hip" shooting in close quarter jungle combat. I have read accounts of GIs carrying the TSMG on the hip keeping the barrel in line with the line of eyesight. That way they were able to engage the close target by just a trigger pull because the gun was already aimed by their line of sight.

 

PK's post from January 2004.

 

I have noticed different height front sights. While there are smaller variances within categories, two different heights stand out and could be called “tall and shortâ€; you wouldn’t have any trouble telling them apart.

 

In general, the tall sight is the one you want (sounds like you have a short) and it is much more prevalent. The current sight offered by Kahr is well made (believe it or not) and one of the tallest- a good candidate for you to try.

 

Keep this in mind, the “battle sight†setting on the Lyman (leaf folded down, small notch visible) is intended to allow hits on a torso out to 200 yards (or something like that, no time now to look it up), so it will hit high at the ranges we normally use these guns. With the staff up and the aperture set to a specific distance, the POI should correspond with the marking on the staff.

 

In my opinion, 20 yards is to close to make any judgment, adjust your front sight to get it on at 50 yd. with the staff up and the slide at ‘0’ and you should be quite satisfied.

 

Also, the open bolt will cause poi to shift dependent on the support given to the gun while firing. It will be quite different fired from sandbags or sitting or standing. Before you set anything in stone, try all positions and note the differences in POI, then decide how you will likely use the gun and proceed accordingly.

 

 

my 46 year old eyes cant see the notch in the rear sight at all!...i raise the sights up and use the ring...i still can barely see it...i like the uzi rear sight ring....its huge.....the more i shoot FA the more i realize FA and subguns are for 15 yards or so....you can destroy anything in 15 yards.....at 25 yards your missing 1/2 the time with a burst....typically on my steel targets i hear at least 1 ''ting''.....with my M16 its even worse.....SA i can blast anything 1 shot, 1 hit....put it on full and i miss almost every time at 25+ yards....

 

if i were in a zombie apocalypse i would gladly use my subguns.....but for 15-20 yards only....

[StooperZero]

When I was in basic training our sergeant was conducting an exercise on locating enemy fire. A couple of instructors went up on a over grown weeded hill. They fired M14s with blanks . Out of 30 trainees, no one could identify where the firing was coming from.

The sgt instructed the shooters to switch to FA fire. One short burst and all 30 private knew exactly where the gun was located.

 

 

the japs used a reverse tactic, machineguns to conceal sniper fire.

[geefal]

German guns versus American guns, to me it's purely a matter of honoring our country and soldiers.

I do not own / patronize any German or Jap guns at all!

Simple as that,

Darryl

 

Not sure how that helps or hurts anyone, but to each his own I suppose (pretty sure no one from that time period is aware of your buying habits).

 

So do you own no current German made guns? No Japanese cars. No TV. No cars with parts from Japanese manufacturing plants, no Harley Davidson motorcycles, no cars with alternators or starters. How about Chinese made stuff.

 

It is a simple factual comparison we were talking about here, not a "feelings" thing.

 

Whether you like it or not aside, factually speaking some of our stuff was simply not as good, and sorry if that fact offends your "feels".

[geefal]

Fast firing MGs???

Once a few years ago I had a nice conversation with a Marine who served on Guadalcanal.

He told about a time his squad was slated to go on patrol. His issue firearm was a M1903 rifle but he switched with a friend for a Thompson.

At some point they hit a Jap patrol. A firefight ensued and my friend was really enjoying himself until he realize he had just emptied his last mag. Took less than 10 minutes. At that point he was scared shitless. He survived and returned with his 10 LB club.

He said he went back to his M1903 and never again carried a Tommy.

 

Point 2

When I was in basic training our sergeant was conducting an exercise on locating enemy fire. A couple of instructors went up on a over grown weeded hill. They fired M14s with blanks . Out of 30 trainees, no one could identify where the firing was coming from.

The sgt instructed the shooters to switch to FA fire. One short burst and all 30 private knew exactly where the gun was located.

 

What's the moral of the story?

Shooting at people with a MG firing 1500 RPM can be a lot of fun. Until the gun runs out of ammo or 30 privates suddenly open fire with M14s.

Jim C

 

To bad they didn't equip those Thompsons with some sort of lever that could enable a person to be able to shoot semi only.

 

I carry a MP5 with me on the ranch on a daily basis. Wife always asked why. My fairly pat reply was "better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it".

 

She always pretty well shook her head at that till one day when I drove in the farm yard where she was at and she had shut herself in the barn. Three wild dogs digging at the door trying to get into her. Three dead dogs later she no longer ever questioned why I carry that with me.

 

Never blame poor personal training or firing habits as being a fault in the equipment. If you run out of ammo with the Thompson, it is your own stupid fault. Not the guns.

[buzz]

Yeah, they should have made the Thompson select fire. That would have made it a much more useful gun.

 

 

Huggy, keep practicing. You should be able to shoot as well as the guys in the video, chew up a paper plate at 40 yards.

 

The notch sight on the Lyman is a waste of time. The lyman is not that great in general, it's good sight for a target rifle IMHO.

 

I always end up giving up and using the cocking knob as the rear sight. The peep on the ladder works OK I guess.

 

The sheet metal peep sight on the M1 type is actually great, the peep hole size is good and you eye finds the front sight quickly.

[huggytree]

i just need some younger eyes....maybe some new glasses (perfect vision until age 40---now its worse every year---getting old sucks)

 

ive only shot the thompson 2xs now...so im practically a virgin with it

 

i agree your m1 sight would probably work better for me...i will skip the sights next time and try using the charging handle

 

at 15 yards i can unload 50 rounds w/o a miss...with the last 30 in a 4-5" grouping....at that point you just watch the target and not use the sights anymore

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

I have shot and owned a few different WWII subguns and mgs and I would have to agree with Johnsonlmg41 on this. The Thompson does have the cool factor and is very well made, but is outclassed by most of its rivals during the war. I find it very awkward to shoot and i dont like the sights (28A1) Some of my favorites to shoot are my Mp38 and my PPSH41. The Beretta subguns are also very good shooters. I would even say the Sten is a more handy as a battle weapon than the Thompson. The 45 round does have an advantage in stopping power over the 9mm guns for sure though. I think most German guns did outclass ours and were a bit more advanced, but the GI weapons were all well made and functioned great for the most part. One of the smoothest shooting rifle caliber weapons I have shot from the time period is the MP44. If they could have gotten those out to the troops in mass it would have made things more difficult for sure. I think they all have their pluses and minuses and I find them all fascinating to study and learn about.

[buzz]

Huggy, I exaggerated, I do actually use the peep on the lyman a lot, it does the same job as any peep sight. I just think a ladder sight is a delicate refinement for a gun that shoots 45acp.

 

And it's actually pretty easy to hold the gun on target using the cocking knob.

 

 

 

Aside from that,

 

I can't agree with these negative comments about the Thompson in general. I think it shoulders and points very naturally.

 

I've never noticed anyone shooting any better with any other subguns. People seem to have an easy time operating the Thompson and making hits with it.

 

People sometimes make negative comparisons between the Thompsons and other guns, but when they shoot at paper, all the guns seem to do about equally well.

 

Of course everyone has a right to an opinion, but the Thompson is a physical object and that introduces a certain amount of objectivity into the discussion.

 

The fact that you prefer another product doesn't mean that the Thompson is flawed.

 

What operational task did the Thompson fail at?

 

You know what job the MP40 failed at? It fired a FMJ 9mm and not a 45acp. Also, if the soldier accidentally pressed his hand against the mag as he was grasping the foregrip, it would jam the gun. That seems like a flaw in a combat weapon.

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Hi Buzz,

I didnt want to sound like I was bashing on the Thompson because I was not. For the time period when it was designed it was awesome. But the twenties and thirties were an amazing time for advancement in weapons designs and some better ideas came about. The two biggest shortfalls for me with the Thompsons are that is is very top heavy and not balanced well. I find it hard to shoulder quickly and fire with it. The second is the magazine insertion is also very slow and awkward in my opinion. The enclosed magwell with a lead-in like the mp38/40 is a big improvement for quick reloads. Lining up the slots on the Thompson mags is a pain and I would not want to try to do it in the dark on a cold night under fire. The drum is far worse for many reasons. I know there is some truth to the fact that holding the mag on the Mp40 series will cause malfunctions and i never hold mine there, i have had new shooters do it with my MP38 and it does not seem to affect it. In fact my Mp38 is the only subgun I have that has never had a malfuntion of any kind in several thousand rounds. I think a lot of the differences with what guns feel comfortable to individuals lies in the size and build of a person too. I think this debate will never be totally solved. Its like the Ford vs chevy arguments. If I had to go back in time to fight during WWII and had my pick of subguns I would choose my PPSH41 because to me its the most comfortable gun for me to use effectively and I like the 7.62 round over the 9mm or 45. That is totally my opinion and not based on anything other than my years of shooting the different subguns. The Thompson is the hands down winner for the "cool factor" at the range. Almost anyone can tell you its a Tommygun even if they have no interest in guns. They are a piece of American history for sure.

[Sandman1957]

Darryl,

Not arguing your point, however, for me, I put it under the heading "to the victor goes the spoils". Its fun shooting the MP-40 and Thompson with guests over. Also have them shoot the 1911A1, the luger and P-38. Makes for a good history lesson. I love my Vet bring back MAT-49. Good friend closed out the health record of the former owner with SEAL TM 2 in Vietnam circa 1967.

 

I would carry the Thompson any day during WWII. The .45 is a man stopper. Most Vets I spoke with said it always knocked down the guy they hit. They may have tried to get up, but it knocked them down. The firepower of the unit used complimentary fires. The Thompson had its place just like the Garand, Carbine and BAR. Used together (complimentary) its a deadly combination.

 

I'll take the .45 any day over the 9mm. Also, the sound of the guns makes a difference. Shooting the MP-40 during WWII drew fire. Recon teams would carry them behind enemy lines to confuse the Germans.

 

While heavy, it was much lighter than the BAR. When you are carrying one (during war) you tend to be younger and in good condition.

 

Sandman1957

[buzz]

I enjoy when people kick ideas around, that's why I'm part of this forum. I like reading different opinions and new ideas.

 

I think that people make two mistakes when they evaluate a weapon:

 

1. They focus too much on picky details.

 

2. They ignore the operational record of weapons.

 

 

Details don't matter because the users of products soon learn to work around little flaws. If your wife's cake mixer is wobbly, that doesn't mean that she takes 4 hours to mix a cake. She just puts her hand on it to steady it.

 

If your Vette handles poorly in the rain, you don't crash it every time it rains. You just slow down.

 

 

The operational record of a weapon is really the only way to measure it's value.

 

The scientific method works on test and observation. What bigger test is there than combat?

 

We don't need to speculate on how well these weapons worked. They were actually used by the millions in a global war.

 

 

Whenever you see a TV show or read a review about a military gun, what happens?

 

Somebody takes the gun to the range, fires a couple mags, makes some picky comments, and then declares it good or bad.

 

And they'll make some gun-shop-bubba-talk about it, somebody's uncle said he didn't like it when he used it on Iwo Jima.

 

Nobody ever talks about how the gun was actually deployed in combat or how well it performed in combat or how it was regarded by the soldiers.

 

The data that's actually important, nobody cares about.

[buzz]

duplicate post

Edited February 22, 2017 by buzz

[ALLUTAH]

I agree with you guys on the cool factor, my Thompson is definitely my favorite gun to shoot! I find it stable and easy to shoot,my son prefers to shoot the Ruger 556K, but he is 25 years old and is more used to the AR's. I also love firing my MAC-10 .45's ,definitely a crazy fun gun although not as stable.

Edited February 22, 2017 by ALLUTAH