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Firearm Blog Soviet Thompson Article


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#1 cbmott

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 09:13 PM

Anyone read this article and have thoughts?
https://www.thefirea...-soviet-russia/
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#2 swat12

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:02 AM

Nothing special. speculation and well-known facts. the whole problem is that the author does not quite understand what he is writing about. when the first m1921 were delivered, there was not even an NKVD. then there was the OGPU. Secondly, the NKVD was not a secret service. It is a very comprehensive structure. among other things, the structure of the NKVD included (except for the internal affairs bodies) state security agencies and the border service.
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#3 cbmott

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 06:50 AM

Nothing special. speculation and well-known facts. the whole problem is that the author does not quite understand what he is writing about. when the first m1921 were delivered, there was not even an NKVD. then there was the OGPU. Secondly, the NKVD was not a secret service. It is a very comprehensive structure. among other things, the structure of the NKVD included (except for the internal affairs bodies) state security agencies and the border service.


SWAT12 I was hoping you’d comment and fill in some knowledge gaps. It’s definitely not a “scholarly” article for sure as the author even states he uses theories but it’s still interesting to see an article about Soviet dealings with Thompsons. My knowledge about Soviet history revolves mostly around surface to air missile systems and not much else. It’s also interesting to see a different point of view especially when it comes to the Thompson from a different area of the world, same as when our European members add posts about Thompson items or stories from their countries.
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#4 swat12

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:16 AM

Наверное стоит начать с этого фото.

Attached Files


Edited by swat12, 21 September 2019 - 01:18 AM.

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#5 cbmott

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 08:15 AM

That’s looks like a complete version of a photo that was in the article. Can you explain more why to start with this photo? Everything you have said sounds correct I am just curious if you have more knowledge about the subject please pass it along. It would be interesting to know what organizations the guns were exactly sent to and their purpose and not just get his rumored belief. Most of the history I know about Thompsons in Russia is about Lend Lease and how many stayed in crates and became the parts kits we now enjoy. I do also remember reading a book about an American paratrooper who escaped a Nazi prison camp in Europe and was found by a Russian Armored unit with Sherman tanks and all armed with Thompsons that they specifically would not give him because they liked the Thompson too much (so he got a Ppsh-41).

This article however really took several paragraphs to talk about 1921 Thompsons and then kind of leaves us hanging. It is a very big claim to say several hundred were smuggled to Russia as I’ve never heard that before, it would be nice to have a few serial numbers to look up and investigate. This article raises more questions than it answers so I wish it was longer and went into more detail. I was left with a bit of skepticism, or at lease an eyebrow raise about parts of it. However, that being said, it is interesting enough to want to know more as the author said he did research in old Soviet archives and at the pictures were fascinating.
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#6 swat12

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 01:49 PM

Фотография подписана : "Делегация комсомольцев 21-го Ямпольского пограничного отряда и руководство Управления Погранохраны и войск ГПУ УССР на 1-й окружной комсомольской конференции ПО и ВО ГПУ Украинской ССР, 1931 г.

На фрагменте-стенд с разобранным пистолетом-пулемётом Томпсона, состоявшем в ограниченном количестве на вооружении погранохраны и войск ОГПУ."
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#7 Ron Mills

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:04 PM

Фотография подписана : "Делегация комсомольцев 21-го Ямпольского пограничного отряда и руководство Управления Погранохраны и войск ГПУ УССР на 1-й окружной комсомольской конференции ПО и ВО ГПУ Украинской ССР, 1931 г.

На фрагменте-стенд с разобранным пистолетом-пулемётом Томпсона, состоявшем в ограниченном количестве на вооружении погранохраны и войск ОГПУ."

Perhaps you could translate that to English, da? My Ruskie is rusty 😉
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#8 cbmott

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:12 PM

If anyone besides me is interested and reading this post this is what what the google translator said from SWAT12’s post: The photo was signed: "The delegation of the Komsomol members of the 21st Yampolsky border detachment and the leadership of the Border Guard and troops of the GPU of the Ukrainian SSR at the 1st district Komsomol conference of PO and HE GPU of the Ukrainian SSR, 1931.

On the fragment there is a stand with a disassembled Thompson submachine gun, which was in limited quantity at the arsenal of the border guard and the OGPU troops. "

So this picture is specifically talking about border guard units in and around Ukraine? Any idea how many Thompsons the units may have had? I’m not sure how much I believe the author of the article when he says 200 1921’s were smuggled to Russia as I don’t remember reading this any most of the Thompson history books or SAR articles. The Irish smuggling plot that was foiled is well known but not too much about what the author claims. I am very interested to know more about Soviet use of Thompsons as it isn’t covered anywhere near as much as other subjects for obvious reasons.
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#9 swat12

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 02:28 PM

I will answer for sure. But not wanting to be unfounded, I began to re-read the information available to me on the Russian-speaking Internet in this regard. And the more I read, the more I learn new things for myself. therefore, I want to prepare my answer in detail. There is still a problem with the language barrier. I know English very poorly, and Google translator is not always correct.
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#10 cbmott

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 03:30 PM

I will answer for sure. But not wanting to be unfounded, I began to re-read the information available to me on the Russian-speaking Internet in this regard. And the more I read, the more I learn new things for myself. therefore, I want to prepare my answer in detail. There is still a problem with the language barrier. I know English very poorly, and Google translator is not always correct.


It would be fantastic to hear more about this subject especially from Russian speaking sources whenever you are done researching. Please take your time and don’t feel rushed, I know Russian very poorly so we are the same with our language skills.
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#11 rpbcps

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 03:37 PM

Very interesting post, with another photo I have not seen before, showing the M1921 in Soviet service in the 1930's. 

 

I am curious where the Firearm Blog got the following statistic for lend-lease Thompsons supplied to the Soviet Union during WW2:  "There are several conflicting sources, but the number that seems to be the most credible is 137,729 (One Hundred Thirty-Seven Thousand Seven Hundred Twenty-Nine) – almost 8% of all the Thompsons produced"

 

The story about the Soviets obtaining M1921's via Mexico, is repeated in another Firearm Blog about the Thompson,"some Tommy guns were acquired earlier by Soviet special services (NKVD/OGPU) in Mexico".

 

https://www.thefirea...-folding-stock/

 

Stay safe

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 02 November 2019 - 03:51 PM.

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#12 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 07:34 AM

Фотография подписана : "Делегация комсомольцев 21-го Ямпольского пограничного отряда и руководство Управления Погранохраны и войск ГПУ УССР на 1-й окружной комсомольской конференции ПО и ВО ГПУ Украинской ССР, 1931 г.

На фрагменте-стенд с разобранным пистолетом-пулемётом Томпсона, состоявшем в ограниченном количестве на вооружении погранохраны и войск ОГПУ."

Perhaps you could translate that to English, da? My Ruskie is rusty




The photo was signed: "The delegation of the Komsomol members of the 21st Yampolsky border detachment and the leadership of the Border Guard and troops of the GPU of the Ukrainian SSR at the 1st district Komsomol conference of PO and HE GPU of the Ukrainian SSR, 1931.

On the fragment there is a stand with a disassembled Thompson submachine gun, which was in limited quantity at the arsenal of the border guard and the OGPU troops. "


I participate regularly on this Russian language forum - guns.ru.  Google Chrome and Google Translate do a fairly good job of allowing me as a non Russian speaker to participate there.  If you use Chrome as a browser you can set it to automatically translate the pages.


 


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