Baby Face Nelson's Thompson, # 6315- GONE

[OCM]

A year or so ago, a group of us ( Gun Hunters ) traced all the Dillinger related Thompsons that we could find.

 

One of the Thompsons was # 6315 (21 AC) and recovered after the Little Bohemia raid in April 23, 1934. The gun was traced back to the Momsen Dumnegan Ryan Company out of El Paso ,Texas, March 28, 29. ( Thanks to Gordon H.)

 

H.S. Lebman, gunsmith to the outlaws, had been securing Thompsons from El Paso and selling them to Baby Face Nelson in St Paul from his shop in San Antonio . Lebman had shipped 5 or so Thompsons to the Nelson clan in St Paul.

 

Larry Wack, part of the GH group and a ret FBI Agent, recently uncovered some stuff on #6315. The gun was believed donated to the Smithsonian Museum, by the Treasury Dept. Larry and Dr. John Fox, historian for the FBI, did some research on the Thompson & the Smithsonian -

The Smithsonian has only one Thompson, an odd bird from WWII era- see attachment

Larry recently sent me a 1952 FBI memo, whereas it says The Thompson # 6315 ( Baby Face Nelson Thompson) was sent to Quantico for training purposes and has no real value. Quantico advised this weapon is no longer serviceable and the Crime Records ( dept ) said the Thompson was not desired for exhibit purposes anymore-

 

Poof ?

 

OCM

Edited February 10, 2014 by OCM

[Dolphinvet]

I hate to ask, but does that infer that this particular weapon was destroyed?

[OCM]

The Thompson, along with 3 other Thompsons, 2 belonging to the Ma Barker clan, were sent with a memo heading of Guns for Disposition.

Larry said with the bureau language, it sounds as if it means destroyed, disposed of. No longer wanted or needed.

# 6315- Nelson gun

# 5282- Barker gun

#3854- Barker gun

#2214- Carl Straka and gangster , underworld figure

 

Note: Larry Wack said the Barker guns are related to the Barker criminal activities, not necessarily one of the Barker's themselves. I guess this is how the FBI files present themselves.

Edited February 10, 2014 by OCM

[joseph12297]

If they are no longer wanted or needed, can I have them??? Lol.

[Sandman1957]

When you say Quantico, I assume you mean the FBI at Quantico, and not the Weapons Training Battalion, USMC home of the weapons building, Scout Sniper School, and Rifle pistol team etc. Is it possible they went to the USMC and re-issued or added to their museum inventory?

[Sandman1957]

Tracie Hill's book has #7098 donated by the Post Office to the Smithsonian museum. Looks like someone color coded parts of the gun to match an idiot display card for readers. The attachment does not show the SN. Wonder if that is #7098. If not, then most likely there are "some" things on display and many others stuffed away in warehouses. With much of the old inventories hand jammed, could 6315 be lost in a storage warehouse. If the pink wood gun isn't 7098, then maybe its sitting beside 6315...

[ron_brock]

Maybe this was already discussed, but it looks like both guns have the serial number removed in the picture also the trigger frame on the gun on the right (left is not visible).

 

Ron

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

Didn't recognize you with your new cap.

nice picture.

Jim

[OCM]

No clue, just from the files Larry sent, says Quantico ???

[OCM]

Knew that was coming from some smart ass- Yes, my Elmer Fudd outfit, hunting " Snipes " in Wisconsin. Take a Thompson, and bang on the receiver with a hammer, till a " Snipe " shows up.

Picture of a " snipe "

[gijive]

Sandy and Sandman,

 

It would be the FBI weapons facility at Quantico, VA, not the Marine Corps base. The weapons room is in the FBI Academy and they have several Thompsons there on display and used to keep several 1928A1Thompsons around to occasionally shoot on the range. When I attended classes there in 1989 they didn't have Colt Thompsons available for shooting purposes, just the 1928A1 Models. Theye did have several Colt Thomspons on display, though.

 

No clue, just from the files Larry sent, says Quantico ???

Edited December 31, 2016 by gijive

[TD.]

I am pretty sure the Smithsonian Institute has a few more Thompson guns in inventory. I have received several e-mails from members who rarely post, one telling me he has inspected the all Thompsons and accessories. I know Gordon has been to the Smithsonian and inspected their Thompson guns because he has recorded all the serial numbers of the Colt's in inventory. According to Gordon, the Smithsonian has NO's 583, 2060, 5075, 6315, 7098, and 11768.

 

Also according to Gordon, NO 6141 and NO 6315 were the Thompson guns recovered in Wisconsin after the shootout with the Dillinger gang. NO 6141 was used in the Dillinger display at FBI headquarters but it has since been removed from the display and is no longer in FBI inventory. NO 6141 may be the Dillinger Thompson that may have been destroyed. Or not.

[Raining Brass]

[clip] Looks like someone color coded parts of the gun to match an idiot display card for readers. [clip]

That makes sense. I was wondering why the heck they would have done that to it.

[Sandman1957]

So knuckleheads like us don't idolize it...

[OCM]

The FBI memo, dated 1952, clearly lists the guns, including # 6315, as going to Quantico for disposition.

I ( we) believe 6315 was probably destroyed and # 6141 is with the FBI collection.

 

However Dr. Fox and Larry Wack searched for the long lost Dillinger Colt 380, that he had on him when killed and found it basically misplaced in a storage room ! I'd been looking for that gun for over 35 years. The one they had on display was ( as I remember ) a Verne Miller gun from 1936, billed as the Dillinger gun. Of course Fox & Larry solved this one.

 

So?

 

OCM

 

I have the memo but can't seen to get it on a copy & paste thing ?

[Dolphinvet]

The FBI memo, dated 1952, clearly lists the guns, including # 6315, as going to Quantico for disposition.

I ( we) believe 6315 was probably destroyed and # 6141 is with the FBI collection.

 

However Dr. Fox and Larry Wack searched for the long lost Dillinger Colt 380, that he had on him when killed and found it basically misplaced in a storage room ! I'd been looking for that gun for over 35 years. The one they had on display was ( as I remember ) a Verne Miller gun from 1936, billed as the Dillinger gun. Of course Fox & Larry solved this one.

 

So?

 

OCM

 

I have the memo but can't seen to get it on a copy & paste thing ?

Do you have a serial number on the Colt .380 that Dillinger had on him?

[OCM]

Yes, an acid test was done on #6141 to bring the numbers back- Traced ( long story) to HS Lebman then eventually to Nelson who had it at Little Bo.

I have a wild guess that 6315 was a 21A- Why, because I have a picture taken in 1936 of some guns on display at the FBI headquarters, with agents plaque above them. Shows a 21A on display. Most every other gangster related Thompson on display were 21ACs. A Lebman Colt mini machine gun is also pictured, Nelson gun too ??

[OCM]

Doc, if memory serves me right, I don't think we have the serial number on the Dillinger Colt 380 pocket pistol. The numbers had been removed on the gun and the FBI didn't want to further damage the gun by a serial number search. The gun was welded shut and a hole drilled thru it for display or something like that would have to be reversed to get the number. Un-DeWAT sort of thing.

Here attached is the actual JD Colt 380 on display, taken by a friend of mine and one of our gun hunter group. I think this is at the FBI display in the new area in DC

Second in the one I own as a comparison to one unmolested

 

 

ocm

Edited February 11, 2014 by OCM

[historicalgmen]

Gents & Ladies if they show:

 

This might get a bit "windy" so sorry about that; it would be easier to all sit down at the bar and discuss this! Anyhow....

 

With regard to these Thompsons, some of the observations by others here, and the "who has what" of Gangster-dom, let me mention a few things from my last nearly 10 years of research of the 1930s Bureau. Having spent nearly 30 years as an agent, and having the opportunity in my early college days of giving thousands of FBI tours during the period 1968-1970 while employed with them, I had some advantages in examining old FBI files and how to decipher what they were actually saying. That does not mean others here don't know and needless to say, there are many who have studied these files for years. Having said that, there have been multiple mis-interpretations of these documents by authors, researchers and others who drew faulty conclusions from them. One main error I have noticed over the years (not just with weapons) is that many rely on the research of others but that research is flawed in some cases and this only perpetuates the mistake. (A very clear example of this is the belief by many that the FBI did not have weapons issued prior to 1934).

 

Some internal documents are very clear in what they say; on the other hand some are not. With many, it's necessary to examine the wording content to determine what the agent is trying to accomplish with it. With investigative statements everyone knows these will go to court if there is a trial and you're stuck with the results if you make a mistake. With INTERNAL MEMOS on the other hand, while accuracy was necessary, there was more room for a mistake here and there because these were NOT part of any upcoming testimony.

 

As anyone progresses through these weapons, and specifically the Thompsons for right now, it always has to remain in the minds of current researchers that during the gangster years, and up through today, literally thousands of weapons entered the Bureau yearly. During the 30s, we're not talking about just a handful. More importantly is this: In a discussion I had some years back when searching for the Dillinger gang, I spoke to the head of the Firearms Unit from about 1940 - 1960 (Bob Frazier). His words (paraphrased) ring clear; "You have to remember Larry that we were not historians at the time; we were scientists and analysts and examiners. We were preparing for court; for providing leads and assistance to the field; to help the prosecutor make his case and one .380 of Dillinger's looked the same as the hundreds of others we saw on a daily basis. These gangster guns were simply of no interest to us at the time more than anyone else's."

 

It should also be remembered that there was NO FBI HISTORIAN position until 1980 when Susan Rosenfeld took that job. It was then turned over to Dr. Fox in about 1990 or so when she left.

 

What also should always be borne in mind with "this stuff" is the fact that from the early Bureau days throughout the days of the FBI tour and the gangster guns etc., the handling of these items and the inserting and removing of them was done by our Exhibits Section. Very competent personnel, but surely not "historians" in the sense of the word. From the days of Frank Baughman in the 30s to his successors, ranking FBI personnel would decide a certain item would be valuable on the tour etc., and gave instructions to the Exhibits folks to mount it, or whatever. That's the simple explanation. The giving and taking over the years, with highly LIMITED space on the tour, and changing interests by the public and those inside, provided constant movement of weapons in and out and as a result, chances of errors, lost items, and more being made by those involved. It's strictly the "human element involved" and it's not really "nobody cares." Everyone involved in maintaining the Bureau's history cared as much as they could. I saw that myself.

 

Deciding what to keep over the years and what to get rid of was no doubt a monumental and continuous decision making process that was influenced by a multitude of factors. I seriously doubt that decades back, for example, there were many in the Bureau who had the foresight 50 years ago to know that the old Thompsons, (in this case) might be of interest to a group of collectors. And what about the collectors of handguns, revolvers, vests, gas guns, Monitors and all the rest? Where do you make the decisions on what to keep and what to dispose of..........there is ONLY so much space available. There are safety and other regulations to deal with too. On an on....(And this is not even taking into consideration the other cases in history that have nothing to do with the gangsters, i. e. the spies and espionage findings, the Nazi saboteurs, the major high profile kidnappings like Bremer/Hamm, high profile Civil Rights cases, and so on and so on!)

 

Well, I thought I ought to preface any additional input I may make on this subject with the above. Later on today or so, I'll see if I can add some input to Sandy's notes and items I mentioned to him.

 

thanks

Larry Wack

FBI - Ret.

[TD.]

I do not claim any special knowledge of gangster guns and the Department of Justice. However, I can read Gordon's book and see where he documented "NO 6315 was donated to the Smithsonian Institute Museum gun collection Washington D.C. by the Department of Justice sometime in the Sixties." Gordon also states he inspected all six Colt Thompsons I referenced above in 1995. That would mean a 1952 FBI document as to the disposition or current state of NO 6315 would not be the final say. I have no problem understanding why the FBI would transfer or donate a historically significant firearm to the Smithsonian Institute.

 

I would surmise that if NO 6315 was at the Smithsonian in 1995, it is most likely there today. Why the Smithsonian would destroy it or why the Department of Justice would want it back is beyond my imagination (at least for today).

 

Gordon also states NO 6141 was donated to the Smithsonian Institute by the Treasury Department sometime in the Sixties. However, NO 6141 does not show up in Gordon's inventory of Smithsonian Colt era Thompson guns. NO 6141 is listed as the Thompson gun that was on display in the old Dillinger exhibit. Gordon will have to clear up this confusion because the Department of Justice and the Department of Treasury are completely different animals - easily confused unless you happen to work for one! I can think of no reason why the FBI would turn over to a Bureau in the Treasury Department one of the Dillinger guns unless it was to be used in a display. Perhaps that happened and the Treasury Department later donated it to the Smithsonian - but I really doubt this happened. I would surmise NO 6141 is still with the FBI or no longer in existence.

 

All good stuff!

Edited February 11, 2014 by TD.

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

Regarding the picture in your post at the top. Do you know how many variations of this pic you've seen??

In one of my old GUNS AND AMMO magazines there is a pic of the same guns and stove with a different man, kneeling with his hat off. (different hat also). Guns and drums slightly rearranged.

Jim

[OCM]

Jim-

I believe I've only seen the one photo, but have seen a larger version showing a hat on the table behind the guy with the hunting hat on.

Would definitely like to see another version, may solve a small issue about one of the Thompsons.

The picture, I believe was taken either in Nelson's cabin or in one of the car garages, I personally think it was Nelson's cabin.

[historicalgmen]

First off, let me mention here that if I gave the impression I was challenging Gordon's info on what was at the Smithsonian, I was not. I don't think I mentioned Gordon's name, and I'm familiar with him and his research. My general ref to faulty research surrounds other unrelated topics of which I've been recently involved with those who like to "cherry pick" information. Sorry for any confusion about this.

 

I will add here that a couple of years back, I had gotten inquiries about a particular old Thompson being on display in Tampa, FBI. I don't recall how this started (or the source of it) but we did resolve that Tampa did not have this Thompson, and according to those firearms instructors present at the time and those retired, coupled with inventory, never did have it. As we all know, mistakes happen with these research projects.

 

6315 and 6141 are definitely two Thompsons from Little Bohemia recovery which can be proven with documents in FBI files that myself, and probably others, have. Needless to say Gordon's info is the same. And yes, references in memos to "Quantico" mean the FBI Academy unless specifically said otherwise.

 

It is accurate to say that the 1952 disposition document showing 6315 being sent to Quantico is NOT the final word on that weapon. I usually reserve final word on any evidence until I see the supporting docs with some recent corroboration if needed. So far I have not found a supporting doc showing 6315 ever left Quantico, but during my brief discussion with Sandy on this, I wasn't immediately aware of Gordon's info. Our discussion of the possibility (emphasis mine) of it being destroyed at Quantico due to being non-serviceable and Crime Records Division (the tour folks) having no interest was consistent with other items of evidence over the years that usually took the same route. It's worth mentioning that in some instances, Quantico used these various items to set up their own "show and tell" around the Academy, the cleaning room, etc. (One example is a handgun belonging to Director Hoover that was sent down there after his death.)

 

Sometime around 3 or so years back, we made an inquiry at the Smithsonian in reference to Thompsons there. We were told they only had one in their inventory and that this is the red one that Sandy has mentioned above, this being # 11768. Needless to say, in light of Gordon's info about 6315 and others being over there at least up until 1995 (?), something went wrong from the Smithsonian side on that inquiry or something has changed. This will need to be resolved with the Smithsonian.

 

With reference to 6141 being on the tour, after 9/11 the tour was closed for security purposes and all tour guns, and displays were dismantled. I don't have anything that I can "take to the bank" on the current whereabouts of 6141 but have no reason to believe it was destroyed or otherwise. Apparently over the last few years, on and off, there has been an extensive and major overhaul with re-evaluations of items being done down there of which I'm not totally privy and which is a massive undertaking. "Removed from inventory" at the FBI I do note is a puzzling comment at a minimum that needs further explanation. My personal opinion is that 6141 is still with the Bureau.

 

It's also worth adding here that the Bureau is currently involved with the upcoming new Law Enforcement Museum in D.C. and I suspect a certain amount of former tour items might end up there.

 

There is one thing that can be found in FBI files regarding items of recovery, evidence etc. That is the "paper trail" because documentation is paramount and has been since the day Hoover took over. It's not unusual to trace in files the finding of a gun at a crime scene all the way up the chain to destruction or whatever years or decades later. I personally do not spend a lot of time searching for one firearm or another because of the labor intense need to examine old files, some of which are thousands and thousands of pages.

 

Many of you folks have been doing this for a long time. I'm more than happy to share my research and (former) insider type observations. I don't pledge to have all the answers.

 

cheers

larry wack

FBI - (Ret.)

[historicalgmen]

After a search this am of approximately 800 documents of the Dillinger file, (using a different approach to info) I found a document revealing that as shown, in March, 1966, Thompson #6141 was removed from the Dillinger tour exhibit and replaced with the Tucson items shown. (As noted on here, this removal from the tour was mentioned in Gordon's records.)

Readers will note on the lower left a hand written note of delivery of this Thompson (and the Winchester) to Quantico FBI in April, 1966. The "Recommendation" is a key element here and it mentions retaining these for possible display in the new FBI Building (this of course is a reference to the new Hoover Building coming.) In 1966, we are still talking about HQ being in the old Justice Dept building where I was giving tours in my early days at HQ, beginning '68.

Barring additional documented evidence, we can only speculate that the "Recommendation" was followed, and 6141 was preserved at Quantico and utilized in the new tour exhibit or there may be some factual basis to believe it was donated to Treasury. It seems to me there's some confusion on this Treasury donation.

From this document and observed names/markings, it is apparent to me that there is/was a separate file (from the Dillinger investigative file) at HQ relative to items going in and out of the Dillinger tour exhibit. Currently, I do not have any such file and it would have to be obtained under an Freedom Of Info request.

I'm going to try to check a couple of other methods re 6141 over the next few days that may, or may not, work. Positive results will be provided here.

see the attached (I hope!) document.

larry wack

[OCM]

That's kinda what our original records were pointing towards, 6141 was with the FBI. Now this doc that Larry founds shows it, probably, hiding at Quantico .

Also the new doc shows the Tucson- Auburn, Indiana Thompson # 8946, was on display with the Winchester 351, which I think was the Lebman gun, at least it shows that on display photos-

If you recall, the # 8946 Auburn gun, was being returned to Auburn PD. Not sure if it's made it yet but I've contacted a gun hunter friend that lives about 6 miles from the police station there. Waiting for a reply, anyone know ?

 

Note: I think actually the 07 Winchester was the one that they picked up at the Auburn raid, so it's a straight gun, not a Lebman conversion. I guess the Auburn PD would need to take that up with the Tucson PD as it's on display there.

Edited February 13, 2014 by OCM