Navy Guns

[MARK2112]

If the navy colts were sent to the U.S navy, how did they end up back in civilian hands? Edited February 27, 2015 by MARK2112

[gijive]

Auto-Ordnance modified the existing 1921 Model guns at the request of the U.S. Navy who wanted a slowed down rate of fire. The 1928 Navy Model became a selling feature that Auto-Ordnance used to promote sales of the gun after 1928. The words U.S. Navy was hand stamped over the Model designation and an 8 was stamped over the 1 in 1921. This Model was sold to Law Enforcement agencies and qualified buyers as "The U.S. Navy Model." The term really had nothing to do with the guns belonging to the U.S. Navy.

[buzz]

For that matter how did any of these military guns get into civilian hands?

 

millions of them

[OCM]

Uncle Sam want's YOU to join the Navy ... Have to be a geezer-type to get this.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Contemporary recruitment messages seem to be more persuasive for some reason. Probably has to do with all volunteer military......

[MARK2112]

It seems the navy guns kinda get a bad rap,kinda treated substandard,to me.....its still a colt,no matter whats stampped on the side.are they a bit more plentyfull in this country?

[OCM]

Nice touch, Dutch.

 

Bob Hope with the USO show, bringing Ann Margret out, saying, " this is what you boys are fighting for " ........

[Kocapuff1]

Mark 2112,

 

I agree with you, it's still the real deal. It's a Colt. It started out as a 1921, then received the "8" overstamp over the "1" and they changed the bolt internals from a Colt 1921 to a 1928 to slow down the cyclic rate. There is a lot of history with them. Definitely a Navy Overstamp is much more rare to find than other 1928s.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Kocapuff1

[darrylta]

As TD would infer, a lot of them and some 21a's were not Commercial Colt guns. If the original buyers were

a military, the guns are 2nd rate and less desirable than the Commercial models?

Just sayin,

Darryl

[kanemono]

How about a "U.S. Navy" Colt for $85.00?

Edited February 28, 2015 by kanemono

[Kocapuff1]

Darryl,

 

I should of elaborated more on the subject. Darryl I agree that a commercial Colt 1921 is more rare, worth more, and probably in a large amount of cases more desirable than the 1928 Navy overstamp. My point I was trying to get across is the Colt Navy over stamp is a Colt Thompson though and is much more rare that the other military 1928 models and is very desirable. A navy colt overstamp would be an awesome part of the Colt Thompson collection. I wish I could have either :-).

[MARK2112]

ive noticed that most of the over stamps looked in better shape than any of the commercial thompsons.

[darrylta]

Don't forget that a large number of 28 overstamps were indeed Commercial Colts bought by PD's

all around the US. Sound logic isn't it TD?

Just sayin,

Darryl

[gijive]

MARK2112,

 

More 1928 Navy Model Thompons were sold to law enforcement agencies than ever went to the military. In fact, the Navy Model was the biggest seller of the 1930's because Auto-Ordnance promoted it as a "new, improved" model. More Colt guns were sold commercially to law enforcement entities, than went into military service, so it isn't really correct to refer to 1921 Models as commercial guns and the U.S. Navy Model as military guns, although Auto-Ordnance would have sold all of them to the military if they could have. Remember, it took from 1921 to 1939 to exhaust the entire inventory of 15,000 Colt made Thompson guns.

Edited March 1, 2015 by gijive

[OCM]

Thanks Chuck- Was hoping you would respond on this.

 

Sandy

[TSMGguy]

For that matter how did any of these military guns get into civilian hands?

My M1928A1, for instance, was produced under the auspices of the US Army's ordnance branch and then shipped overseas as part of Lend-Lease or some other military assistance progaram. Later, it was imported back into the US and sold by the importer at wholsale. Others were diverted from the production lines and supplied to law enforcemment agencies within the US. Many of these were later sold off as surplus. That's what happened, but good luck finding the original paperwork!

[Bridgeport28A1]

For that matter how did any of these military guns get into civilian hands?

 

millions of them

Buzz, my ordnance inspected AOC US Model of 1928A1 FOIA had the first NFA registry entry on a Form 5 on 2 October 1959 with the transferor itle being Accountable Officer. There were two other serial numbers on the form.

 

I always "assumed" they went to a Law Enforcement agency from the US Army in some version of today's DRMO program.

 

The next NFA activity was a Form 5 transfer of a single serial number was 16 years later in 1975.

 

Edit: just to be clear my Thompson is a AOC "bridgeport" WW2 model....not a Colt.... although I do think about the Colt '28 I should have bought once upon a time.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Bridgeport28A1

[OCM]

This Navy overstamp came directly shipped from AO, Hartford, Conn, August 27, 1935 to the Manchester, NH, PD.

To add to this, if anyone has never seen a Navy up close, you can see the U S Navy hand stamped over the top and a 8 hand stamped over the 1, in 1921.

 

 

OCM

Edited March 1, 2015 by OCM

[MG08]

So, just to stir up debate, why are the model 1928A1 shipped to the army not called "the Army Model" ? Same for the M1, M1A1 models ?

[gijive]

So, just to stir up debate, why are the model 1928A1 shipped to the army not called "the Army Model" ? Same for the M1, M1A1 models ?

MG08,

 

I think you have to start with the premise that the original U.S. Navy Model Colt Thompsons weren't just "shipped to the Navy". The Navy requested a reduced rate of fire from the original 1921 configuration and indicated they would place a substantial order if the modifications were made, including a more military style front grip. Auto-Ordnance was more than happy to oblige since sales were slow in the 1920's and 500 or so guns was a huge order for them. The modifications were made to the original 1921 Model guns (no new guns were produced at this time) and a horizintal front grip and sling swivels were offered as an option. Auto-Ordnance then used the Navy's endorsement as a sales pitch to renew law enforcement's interest in the weapon, marketing the original guns with the slowed down rate of fire as the new and improved "U.S. Navy Model of 1928", standard with Cutts compensator. It was strictly a sales pitch to renew interest in slow sales. That is not to say that the Navy didn't actually purchase many of these modified guns but they weren't named U.S. Navy Models because they were exclusively purchased and used by the United States Navy. By the same token, the later produced Savage 1928 Model guns weren't exclusively used by the U.S. Army, so there was reason to refer to them as the U.S. Army Model. I hope this helps explain the commonly misunderstood term U.S. Navy Model Thompson.

[MARK2112]

Great explanation.

[TSMGguy]

So, just to stir up debate, why are the model 1928A1 shipped to the army not called "the Army Model" ? Same for the M1, M1A1 models ?

The modifications to the design that the Army requested and adopted resulted in the nomenclature change, to M1928A1. This was an Army designation which identified the gun as Army. Adding the word "Army" would have been redundant. This is much the same reason as the M1 rifle is not known as the "M1 Army", even though it was developed and adopted under Army auspices. This convention was not always followed though. The Colt's Model 1873 pistol comes to mind. Those in Army service were identifled as the M1873 Army.

 

Not all M1928 Navys went to the Navy, as discussed above. The designation was simply another way to identify the modifications that made the model different from the M1921, and told buyers that the gun comformed to Navy specs.

Edited March 2, 2015 by TSMGguy

[gijive]

TSMGguy,

 

Well said. You are exactly right, of course, regarding the 1928A1 designation based on the Army's specifications. i didn't go into that aspect of it, but am glad you pointed that out. I was directing my explanation to the question regarding why the different models weren't considered Army specific, but you've explained that more concisely than I could have.

[OCM]

Don't send this to the ATF.

 

Model : Model of 1921 with an 8 stamped over the 1 and US Navy stamped over the top of original Model of 1921.

[MG08]

See ? Got a good discussion going. I was being a little "tongue in cheek" with the question. It would seem that nomenclature for military firearms is really dependent on what is going on in the world at the time. and the politics in the war department....