Raphael Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I have a Kahr arms 1927A-1 Thompson and I shot it for the first time last weekend. Afterwards, I disassembled it to clean it. I had a lot of problems taking it apart, but eventually I got it. The main problems were with the latch lock (I couldn't figure out what it was catching on). I am at this point in reassembling it: http://www.netpath.net/~bethf/1927a1reassembly.jpg and I am totally, literally, stuck. I can get it to the point where it shows in the picture and it absolutely will not slide back together. The receiver rails are completely flush with the guiderails, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the trigger area that is blocking anything.. It seems that something is stopping the top and bottom sections from sliding back together but I have closely inspected both parts and I can't see anything in the way. I spent about an hour fiddling with it and I just can't figure it out. I was able to get the parts to close back together last night but I just can't get it now. Please help!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Baker Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I don't know about semi's, but on a 1928 the safety should be off and the trigger depressed to seperate. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Raphael-- What your are experiencing is normal for the Kahr 27. It was not designed with an easy disassembly/ assembly catch. You will need to insert a small screw driver or pen knife inside the rear of the receiver, between the receiver and the trigger frame. You will lift up a spring loaded button with your knife. The receiver should then slide into position. That springed button tends to hang up at several points, so you may have to do this wherever it hangs. Hope this is not too confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adlake Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I posted a fix for this and it works well in the semis I can slide my frame off and on with ez. Frame stays in place tighly as well-adlake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK. Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 (edited) The Frame Latch (the little spring loaded plunger in the rear of the receiver that engages the back of the frame when assembled) can hang up at certain points during the assembly/disassembly process. The most notable is when trying to disassemble the frame/receiver when the latch is caught by the sear and must be manually depressed with a tool to disengage as described by Ralph. There is a minor modification to the receiver that I make to all 27a’s in my shop that eliminates this problem. Why AO hasn’t incorporated something similar is a mystery to me. The biggest difficulty in reassembly is when the parts are held as shown in the photo, the disconnector falls down into the receiver. Try holding the parts sideways so the disconnector stays in its proper place while sliding the frame/receiver together. On occasion a gun will be found where there is a gap between the safety and sear large enough to allow the frame latch to catch the edge of the safety while trying to reassemble. This can usually be overcome by manipulating the trigger and or safety while attempting to slide the frame/receiver together. HTH Edited May 14, 2009 by PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I read all the replies and tried the suggestions, but it still will not budge. The frame latch lock doesn't seem to be the problem. I can see that it's pushed all the way up and it doesn't seem to be catching on anything. It's almost as if the guide rails on the frame won't go into the rails on the receiver. I can't figure out what is catching on what. As PK mentioned, I thought the disconnector might be the problem but I've tried holding it upside down from what it shows in the picture AND sideways and something is still catching on something. I just can't see what it is. I also tried pressing the trigger, but that's the opposite of what I want to do. I'm trying to REassemble it, and by pressing the trigger it moves the parts up to push the receiver out. Thanks so much for all the replies, but sadly they didn't work. Anymore suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley45 Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 if it is new there might be burrs or it might just fit really tight. You might try taking out the bolt and everything in the recever and try sliding the trigger housing on that way, if you have a burr or a real tight fit that will let you know. I have ocasionaly given my WH trigger group a LIGHT tap with a 7oz Stanley dead blow malllet, the orange no mar kind. try it with just empty recever and trigger frame first! If it slides easy your likely hanging up on something. If you have the frame latch held down and the thing will not slide together fairly easily look for burrs, rough or high spots wher the bluing is scraped off etc... BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter63a Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Raphael, don't be discouraged! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif It isn't you; It's a company called Kahr. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif I had the same problem with my Kahr 1927A1. With mine, something was getting caught (hung-up) on the thin internal part (rod) of the safety switch (actually nicked up by something). I had this milled down at the shop I purchased the gun from. It has been fine ever since. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif You might check that out, or look for any other nicks on the internal parts. I hope this helps. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Regards, Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 After another hour of very close inspection and attempts to put it back together, it seems that the problem must be the guiderails. There is just nothing blocking anything in the trigger area/frame or the receiver/bolt. The only thing I can see that appears to be blocking are the receiver rails and the frame rails. I can't get the frame past the point where it shows in the picture (where the rails and frame start to hook together). Would you guys recommend filing down either the frame or guiderails a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK. Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 I would strongly suggest you not start filing blindly, you can’t get back from there. Have you tried removing the frame latch and reassembling? If it still won’t go, remove all the bolt components too, and try assembling the frame to the empty receiver. If that still won’t go, remove the pivot plate and empty all the parts out of the frame assy. If it won’t go together with all of the parts removed from both frame and receiver, there could be something wrong with the frame/receiver slide rails and it should be easy to see. If the rails are to tight (this would be very unusual) it could be that they are bowed and filing would not be the proper course, straightening would be. You have got to make a proper analyses of the problem in order to relieve it correctly without making things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 The bolt can hang low and block the trigger frame if you try sliding them together with the gun right side up. Sideways is better. If you were doing it upside down, then this is probably not the problem. Please do as others suggest and take systematically take out the internal parts. If everything else is out and the two slide together then the problem is not between the receiver and trigger frame. And I think the safety does have to be off for the erassembly to work too. (Can't say for sure anymore, it's been a while since I've done it.) Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted December 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 It turned out that it was the rails. Some tiny metal burrs were getting in the way where the rails on the frame & the rails on the receiver join together and they were preventing it from sliding back together. After a little filing it now goes back together easily. The metal the Thompson is made out of is very soft and easy to file. The softness of the metal is probably what caused the problem because it wouldn't have "burred" if it was harder. But that saved paying a gunsmith 100$ or sending it back & waiting a month or more to get it back. BTW, when I called Kahr Arms, I spoke with both of their repair guys. The one said he didn't know how to fix this specific problem and to talk to the other guy. The other guy said he would take a rubber mallet and hammer it until it fit back together and he said it's "really messy" and "there would be pieces all over the floor". He said he'd then have to totally refinish it and it would be "like getting a brand new gun". I thought that was kind of overkill, or at least unnecessary to have to totally remake the gun for such a simple problem, but he said that's how they do it... However, they were both very friendly, and when I suggested simply using a metal file to file it down he said that was a good idea. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif He also assured me that filing it would NOT void the warranty, which I was concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted December 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 LOL! Yeah... it makes me wonder how they can charge such a huge price for them. I don't think the price I paid was justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 ALL guns have gotten way overpriced, not just Kahr and not just Thompsons. They (gun companies) used to blame the outrageous prices on the product liability risk but the gun companies having been winning the law suits. Ever since Bill Ruger died (he always tried to hold the line on prices) it seems like the costs have gone up way more than before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fencer Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 This week American Rifleman on the "OutDoor" network will be reviewing the Kahr Thompson in their technical section. This could be amusing... or not.. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted December 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Fencer, what did they say about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fencer Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Well it was sorta amusing for a couple reasons. If you were Kahr, and you were sending a gun to "American Rifleman" to have as a "Technical Review" on their TV show.. what would you do? Pick a nice one.. tune it.. make sure it worked flawlessly.. right? Well they tried.. A few quotes... "(Kahr) retooled Thompson's 80yr old design so that it can be manufactured with modern CNC machining to aid cost control and improve fit and finish." http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif "at 8.5lbs the thompon's trigger was quite heavy with substantial takeup and gritty letoff." "we experienced no failues (to feed) with FMJ bullets, but hollow points and semi wad cutters often failed to feed properly." No drum shown. Funny thing though... it appeared that as the show went on, that the front half of the barrel became discolored. They even went so far as to not show the whole gun in some shots. In one close up you can definately see a blemish on the barrel. It sounded like a cap gun going off! And to think I am going to buy one of these things.. Thank God for PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Fencer, That is hysterical. Why does a show like American Rifleman pretend to give honest evaluations, when all they want to do is shill for any gun manufacturer, regardless of the quality of the weapon being tested. The fact that they tried in vain to conceal Kahr's shortcomings is another nail in the credibility coffin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Phil, Lapierre is no Chuck Heston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Amen, Arthur. Fencer said, "Pick a nice one.. tune it.. make sure it worked flawlessly.. right? Well they tried.." - Back in the 60's and 70's un-named auto companies sent "blueprinted" vehicles to the motoring press for the test drives. The press kept on reviewing the same tweaked cars that were never what came off the showroom. Now the public buys Japanese and German cars. Is there a correlation? Better Kahr send in what the buyer will get for $1041 (MSRP) for the review so that the buyer at least has an idea of what they will get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Second, Of course! The car mags would never buy a test car when they knew the manufacturer would gladly provide a "demo" for free. What the gun mags, car mags, bike mags, etc., need to do is go to a retail outlet, and make a random selection from the lott, out of the display case, what have you. I guess that is what fueled Consumer Reports to get in on the action. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to ever do a comparison test on firearms though. It does seem absurd that an 82 year-old factory made Colt TSMG can still shoot flawlessly, while a brand new West Hurley/Kahr needs to be massaged by PK before it can do what it was built and advertised to do; shoot. Strange how sometimes an inanimate object of wood and steel is greater than the sum of its parts, i.e. Colt TSMG, but the same type of components can also be less than the sum of its parts, i.e. Kahr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisley45 Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 What it all comes down to is craftsmanship, the workers at Colt 80 years ago were paid well, had pride in their company and the quality control inspectors did their job. CNC or no CNC, you have to care about what your doing, you can't pay 18year old HS dropouts who don't know an inch from a milimeter and don't care if they check parts as long as they draw a paycheck and expect quality. You also can't charge super high prices for stuff that doesn't work. Sooner or latter someone will make a Semi thompson that works when you take it out of the box. If someone made a semi investment castings or no that worked Khar would be out of the Thompson busness. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted December 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Well guess what... more problems with this piece of Kahr junk! Yesterday, I took it out for the 3rd time and I decided to try out the 10rd drum magazine. I loaded the rounds exactly as the manual states, put the top back on, and wound it 5 times (it said 4-6 times, so I figured the middle should be good). It fired the first 2 rounds with no problem, but when it tried to load the 3rd round it got jammed. The bullet part had come up into the receiver but the back was stuck down in the drum. ARGH! After fiddling around with it and moving the drum back and forth and a lot of swearing I finally got the back unjammed and it came up into the chamber. That round fired ok. Then all the other 6 rounds except 1 did the same thing. It was so frustrating. This gun is definitely not worth the >800$ paid for it. Is this a problem with not winding it enough, or just poor design? Second, after I got it home, I opened it up to clean it. I discovered to my dismay that the entire inner area between the frame and receiver was covered with a small layer of rust. I had used a LOT of oil the last time I put it back together to ensure I would be able to slide it back off easily (see my first post in this thread about how I couldn't get it to slide back together), so there was plenty of lubrication. I had cleaned it very thoroughly and I just could not believe it. I used sandpaper and solvent and got off as much of the rust as I could and put some new blueing on. I checked it today and it looked ok (no new rust). Once again, is this a mark of poor quality metal or did I do something wrong?? Thanks for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted January 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Yesterday I took the Kahr Arms 1927 A-1 Thompson out to shoot. I figured I'd try that accursed drum magazine in Tommy but this time, wind it 6 times instead of 5. Well, it jammed when loading the 2nd shot and jammed when loading the 3rd. I was very very mad and took it out after fiddling with the jammed round with a screwdriver. Later that evening, I had my father check it out again. I loaded it and just popped out the rounds with my fingers and they were all jamming, and we could see where the hangups were. Once again, he discovered more burrs right at the opening which we suspected were causing the jams. Once again, he broke out the metal file kit and started filing. After a few minutes, he had me try loading it and they were still jamming. We did some more filing and I tried it again and some of them didn't jam. Then he did some more filing and I popped them all out and none jammed!!!!! However, it was dark at the time and I couldn't take it out and test it in the gun. But I'm pretty confident it will work now (or at least work a lot better). I still had about 4 or 5 out of the 30 in the stick jam, so that is still a problem. I have also noticed a small crack in the Disconnector where it bends 90 degrees, and it appears that there is a small crack in the receiver where the round ejects. I've been checking the disconnector crack carefully each time after I've shot it and it doesn't appear to be getting any worse, but I'm still concerned. If there are small cracks in those parts I can see, I wonder about the inner workings of the trigger area and the receiver... I'm just amazed that they can sell an *unfinished* gun that the customer has to modify for such an outrageous price. I'm going to be writing a letter to Kahr to express my displeasure. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif The only thing is, it is DEAD ON accurate! I think it's the most accurate gun I have, and it was sighted in almost perfectly out of the box. I don't think any other gun I have was. Because of the accuracy, easy of aim (which I can't understand because it has a peep sight), and no recoil, it's hard to really hate it. However, despite the accuracy, I would recommend that everyone stay away from Kahr Thompsons, unless they slash their prices. It is not worth the 800$+! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Crow Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 It is unfortunate that the Kahrs, and the late Auto Ordnance 27's don't normally function out of the box. I gave 860 for mine, and yes it did take a little tweaking to make it function. I polished the feed ramps, replaced the magazine catch and picked up a few handful's of FA magazines. It gave me a sick feeling the first time at the range when it jammed frequently. For me my Kahr 27 was a major expenditure, but one now that I do not regret. After modifying the magazine catch to accept FA magazines they fit very snug. The accuracy is very good, and that was a surprise to me considering the quality of the mock Lyman sights. The gun now works flawlessly with both stick mags and L drums. It's in PK's hands now for SBR conversion as well as a few other modifications. It is a sign of the times, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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