Thompson "Middle" Sight

[TD.]

In response to thirtyround's question on another thread about the Thompson middle sight, I am sharing a story I submitted to the Thompson Collectors Association (TCA) that was published in the Winter 2016 issue. The newsletters by TCA and The American Thompson Association (TATA) always contain interesting and useful information. Everyone on this Board should be a member of one or both organizations. If you have never attended a Thompson Show & Shoot, you really are missing out on a great experience.

MORE BRITISH INFORMATION

by Tom Davis, Jr.

 

Noted firearms author Frank Iannamico told me that as soon as my book was published I would soon find additional information that I wish I could have included. Frank is always right! And I have started a folder of new information to include in an expanded edition of Great Britain – The Tommy Gun Story… sometime in the distant future.

 

Several months ago on David Albert’s fantastic Thompson Forum, www.MachineGunBoards.com, member AZBOATER posted a series of pictures from the British Imperial War Museum of Royal Navy trainees at the Eastern Warfare School at Brockenhurst, Hampshire learning jungle tactics for the Pacific War, dated 2 February 1945. Careful examination of this picture revealed a modification to the sights on one of the Thompson guns used by the trainees. Note the addition of a new sight on the receiver nose in front of the actuator cocking ball. While the picture is not definitive, it appears the rear Lyman sight blade has also been removed from the sight base. The official purpose for this modification is unknown. One thought is this arrangement allows for a faster target acquisition in a shoot situation.

 

Discoveries like this are why I enjoy doing research on the Thompson gun. There is always something new to discuss!

 

[huggytree]

finally a picture of a group of WW2 guys w/o them pointing their guns at each other....all using proper gun safety....these guys look extremely serious about their job also

 

i notice all of them got rid of their vertical fore grips also

[kanemono]

Really interesting. Thank you.

Dick

[timkel]

That is interesting. I was under the impression the slot in the cocking handle was the combat sight.

[rpbcps]

Tom,

Thank you for the information, supplied with scans of the Small Arms Profile in geefals post.

 

I wonder what happened to that M1921, the Lowland Depot would have closed many years ago, with many regimental cutbacks / amalgamations, taking place since 1971.

 

Thanks to the information you supplied, I have located a copy of the Small Arms Profile on Amazon.co.uk, so I have ordered that copy.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited January 6, 2017 by rpbcps

[Big Al]

Note the interesting placement of the bayonet behind the left-hand basic pouch, also that even the Thompson-armed men have them as well.

[ron_brock]

Good catch Al,

 

Why would they have bayonets? I was thinking maybe staged and they set down there Stens to pose with Thompsons, but these look like No 4s to me and I do not believe they fit on the Sten.

 

Ron

[giantpanda4]

Looking closely at this gun - it appears to have a Lyman ladder sight base. But maybe no ladder? Sling is in the way, but maybe that is just a field work around for a lost / damaged sight ladder!

[laurencen]

form stories many years ago in UK this is the first time I have seen a middle sight, I heard many vets say they cocked the Thompson with hand flat on receiver not actually grabbing the cocking handle, this sight would prevent the flat palm method,

[jim c 351]

Not sure what type of Enfield bayonet was issue at the time of pic, but a bayonet is a weapon with or without a firearm.

Don't know what kind of bayonet the STEN used, but the Sterling used a No5 jungle carbine bayonet.

The Gale and Poldan manual recommends only using the leaf sight for ranges over 50 yards. Under 50 yards it is recommended that the actuator knob be used as a rear sight.

FWIW

Jim C

[thirtyround]

Discussion,opinion and a hypothetical reason;

The middle sight is interesting and probably a very small piece of Thompson history. However that's why its awesome. I had seen the sight system before years back but didn't think much of it, as intersesting as it was. TD did point out something however that I didn't notice before... The rear ladder sight components were removed. That changed my original concept of why the mid-sight was there. The British to their superiority and understanding seemed to always "improve" things to what they thought better. The changing of the sling swivels and sling use for instance. In my opinion a negative emerged by so doing... by doing so, it put a lot of reverse leverage on the stock mounting area, pulling the screw heads inward, thus splitting or cracking the stock, ultimately leading to a set of 2 brass screws to improve ruggedness. I don't know if the US forces actually experience any stock problems, but the US followed with their own improvement as we know

Interestingly enough, I have discovered another British forces image of the same mid-sight setup, that is, no rear sight guts and the same welded on front sight in the same location. However I need to send it to TD by email, So TD PM me and lets talk.

Now for the hypothetical aspect. Personally I believe this modification was very limited to a certain command and personalities within. I'm thinking the very professional killers of men lived and warred by proven tactics and personal fighting techniques based on their experiences. The mod was performed out of personal style and apparently authorized. Simply, It seems to me that the setup as seen would improve quick target acquisition inside 100 yards and especially at closer range, much closer. Hell, they might of discovered a more effective means of use, then they had the STEN forced on them. My 2 cents worth.

Thanks TD for identifying this aspect of Thompson history and inviting discussion. I feel very fortunate to be part of this forum and to discuss this very cool aspect of history with other passionate lovers of martial weapons and military history.

[buzz]

The Lyman sight is a nicely made sight but in all honesty it's not that useful. Did you ever try to use the notch? It's tiny.

 

Like everyone else, I always end up using the notch in the cocking handle.

 

That british middle sight is a glorified version of using the cocking handle to sight the gun.

 

You'd have the exact same sight picture as using the cocking knob, except the smaller notch in the british sight would allow quicker aiming.

 

The soldiers probably told the armorer that they liked to use the cocking knob as a sight but the notch was too big, and would he please fix up something similar with a smaller notch.

 

 

The original Thompson design was gross overkill for a submachine gun. The gun was designed like a fine sporting rifle.

 

Like for example, the cantilever front grip mount presses upwards exactly in the middle of a single fin.

 

That's something you'd design for a precision high-powered target rifle. .

Edited January 6, 2017 by buzz

[Mike Hammer]

I think the middle sight was a nice improvisation for actual battle use. I've always thought the rear sight was not advantageous to quick sight targeting. OK, who's going to make a reproduction...don't think we'll ever see an original one of these turn up, probably a very few of these were made by the Brits. Although I wouldn't think of actually welding one of these on my gun, the guys who used these didn't have to pay 20K for their gun.

 

Mike Hammer

[ron_brock]

The original Thompson design was gross overkill for a submachine gun. The gun was designed like a fine sporting rifle.

 

Like for example, the cantilever front grip mount presses upwards exactly in the middle of a single fin.

 

That's something you'd design for a precision high-powered target rifle. .

Yeah but, all guns were being designed this way during that period. WWII is where cost reductions and expediency started to emerge in the arms market. Not just talking the Thompson here. Compare prewar Mausers and Arisakas with last ditch guns, etc. You have to compare the Thompson to arms from the same era (MP18, Lanchester, etc).

 

Ron

[Big Al]

Could the placement of this rear sight have something to do with the man holding it being more accustomed to the barrel-mounted rear sight of the Mk III Lee-Enfield? That possibility just occurred to me.

[dalbert]

Could the placement of this rear sight have something to do with the man holding it being more accustomed to the barrel-mounted rear sight of the Mk III Lee-Enfield? That possibility just occurred to me.

 

Big Al,

 

That's a perspective I did not consider. Could very well be...

 

I'm thinking that it has to be visible between the actuator ears, and would be a finer sight for perhaps intermediate range.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[AlanDavid]

I suspect the 'middle' sight is in fact luminous. Similar to the back sight of a Welrod. I have also seen a M1911A1 pistol with the rear sight removed and replaced with the rear (luminous) sight from a Welrod, this pistol is in a British museum.

 

Regards

 

Alan David

Sydney

[TD.]

Alan,

An interesting observation and possibility. It makes perfect sense. I wish there was some way to verify this.

________

 

Since this story was published in the Thompson Forum, Board members thirtyround and Mk VII have supplied some interesting pictures that showcase further use of this Thompson mid-sight. thirtyround found the following picture for sale at Alamy.com. It is of medium resolution but unfortunately has an overlay with the Almay name that is removed when you purchase the photograph. However, it is certainly good enough for our use:

 

 

thirtyround was not the only member engaged in looking for additional information. Mk VII determined the picture is actually from the Imperial War Museum (IWM) but the available preview picture is of much lower resolution so it is very easy to miss the mid-sight on the Thompson gun. A crop from thirtyround's Alamy.com picture inserted in Mk VII IWM pictures produced the following exhibit:

 

 

Mk VII located two more pictures in the same series (British Army, 6th Commando personnel, in Northwest Europe near Wesel in 1944/45). If you look closely, I believe you can see the mid-sight on a Thompson gun in each picture.

 

 

Maybe AZBoater will find us some high resolution pictures

 

All good stuff!!!

[sc269]

finally a picture of a group of WW2 guys w/o them pointing their guns at each other....all using proper gun safety....these guys look extremely serious about their job also

 

i notice all of them got rid of their vertical fore grips also

Well, I ain't scared to show my ignorance, but I thought those were horizontal fore grips. Please educate the challenged. LOL

[michaelkih]

Very cool. Thanks.

[Mk VII]

We now have view of a gun that has surfaced bearing this sight.

I first heard of its emergence around the time the book went to press, but because I hadn't got sight of it, I couldn't confirm it.

 

http://www.fototime.com/D4A2583C6D2BE37/standard.jpg

 

http://www.fototime.com/409FAF36770CA85/standard.jpg

 

http://www.fototime.com/446FC774CB1E9B8/standard.jpg

 

http://www.fototime.com/31D945A47598882/standard.jpg

[Mk VII]

http://www.fototime.com/026DD6D0046025C/standard.jpg

 

This gun is number S120859, with the Bridgeport address. A time capsule that has remained undisturbed since the war, this gun is probably worth its own new thread, so I shall probably start one in a day or two.

[bug]

Any idea when/where sight was added?

[Adg105200]

Does it have a complete ladder sight? Or just the base?

 

Andrew

[Mk VII]

It has the usual Lyman sight. We should note that the sight axis pin protrudes slightly to one side.

 

http://www.fototime.com/161CC93232BD534/standard.jpg

 

The date of the alteration is unknown but it surfaced at the clear-up of the estate of a long-time rifle club member who had been in the Home Guard during the war, along with several other firearms. He died 10-15 years ago, the widow died more recently.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Mk VII