Fully Transferable MP5s Mfr 1984? Not Converted HK94's-True/False?

[Grease Gunner]

Hello Fellow members: I came across a very interesting auction for MP5s. I am posting this here because I know many of you understand the NFA process and difference between Post Samples, Pre Samples and Fully Transferable guns. The auction is by the Miami Dade police department selling off some inventory so the funds can be used to purchase equipment for the Swat team. Follows in Italics is the language from the ad. First one fact. Almost all the MP5s in the registry as transferable are converted HK94s and remarked to say MP5 on the receiver but the paperwork still says HK94. Another belief is that there are only a half dozen Real MP5s in the registry and that is because they were here prior to the 1968 cutoff. Reason:

They were too expensive and not well known in the mid 60s. HK was having a whale of a time getting sales for these guns.

the ad follows

 

These firearms and suppressors are National Firearms Act items. These firearms and suppressors must be transferred on an ATF Form 5. Although it is not required by the ATF, we are requiring that anyone wishing to procure these items have a federal firearms license. The firearms were imported for government/law enforcement use and not as sales samples. The sales sample restriction remains on the firearm for the life of the firearm. However, firearms imported for government use and were actually used by the government agency, i.e. weren’t imported to circumvent the National Firearms Act (NFA) import restrictions, may be transferred by the government agency. Here, the firearms were imported for the government agency and actually used by the agency for approximately 30 years, so the import clearly wasn’t intended to circumvent the NFA import restrictions, thus the firearms are transferable. The Miami-Dade Police Department will be transferring the firearms on an ATF Form 5 to the winning bidders. They may then be transferred on an ATF Form 4. These are fully transferable weapons.

 

Another part of the ad

 

All of the information provided in requirements was derived directly from the NFA branch of the ATF. I will stress that this is not a claim! We have already successfully transferred four of these weapons (same circumstances and from the same batch of MP5 9mm's) in the previous month and all followed the same ATF guidelines.

I called the number in the ad and the person said all the above info that he is relying on came from ATF and he copied and pasted from an e mail he got. He was NOT willing to either give me a copy of what he got or any name of anyone in the NFA branch who could confirm this. If true, these guns are worth a fortune and

there are about 6 left. the first two sold in the mod twenties and the two that just sold fetched 48 with buyer premium.

 

Many of us have seen Pre86 samples transfer on a form 3 without any restrictions since it was erroneously left of the form. That doesnt change the status and that sample is not fully transferable to an non FLL/SOT.

 

It is my understanding that if its imported after the 68 cutoff, that it cannot be fully transferable regardless

of the intentions and regardless of how long the dept had them.

below is a link to the actual ad and I would be very interested to hear any input and comments

 

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=7629&acctid=7167

 

The auction was for one week and the bids jumped from 24k to 48k on the last day!!!

 

Anyone that I shared this auction with did not believe the claims that they are fully transferable.

The guns are rough and needed to be refinished. The gamble that I wouldnt take is to bid, buy the gun, get it on a form 3 with no restrictions. Then sell it and have the form 4 disapproved and

then "try" to recover the purchase price from the seller 6 months or more after the initial auction purchase!! Good luck with that. No one that I know would bid on that since they did not believe

the unfounded representations.

 

I am anxious to hear board members opinions on this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Grease Gunner

[johnsonlmg41]

Not buying that story at all. First off they will transfer to a dealer on a form 5 (LE has no SOT, but is .gov so they don't pay taxes). Notice that they will only transfer to dealers, which I sort of get, they finish faster and when they are found to be pre-may samples they'll be in legal hands.

There will be import records of these guns that state who and when they were brought in, and that alone will determine whether they are pre-may or transferable The NFA applies to everyone so just because the PD got them (they were not the importers so their part is not really relevant) tax free from an importer has no bearing on the status of the guns for future non .gov owners. All sales samples were imported for gov't use so that line of thinking isn't going to go far.

Copied and pasted from an email....... I'd want a copy of a letter from NFA branch stating that these are transferable to individuals, and that letter would need to be more than one level up from examiner, tech branch, or the legal dept at a minimum.

 

I went down this road years ago with a pre-may MP5, that ended up a post may. Fortunately the seller made good. An ATF agent handled part of the sale (from a convicted felon) and helped with the paperwork and he had no idea about NFA firearms.....he was good at confiscating them though! The final was when I got a call for a demo letter that I didn't have and that's when it all came to light. These might transfer just fine to an 02/07 with no hiccups?

 

I'd be asking to look at the current registration? There exists the possibility these were 94's and the PD had them converted and remarked before 1986? Again, that's going to be on the paperwork at the PD and why they won't share that is a red flag.

Those in the MP5 marketplace in the next couple months should be cautious!

 

 

The Q+A section is worth reading.....wow!

Edited May 23, 2021 by johnsonlmg41

[Grease Gunner]

johnsonlmg41 is sooo right on. I did ask local ATF contact that I have a great rappor with and he pointed to the NFA handbook which has nothing

to support MiamiDade pD claims. He also said he asked an Area Supervisor and the supervisor said "no way"

I would think the import records would have the model as either MP5 or HK94.

There will be more MP5 auctions as they have more left.

Will there be buyers who found a gold mine? Or buyers who bought them thinking they were more than a dealer sample only to find out that they are not!!

[StrangeRanger]

So are the Miami-Dade Police committing fraud?

[Grease Gunner]

So are the Miami-Dade Police committing fraud?

I spoke to the individual whose number was in the ad. His comment to me was "do you think a PD would mislead you" :

That wasnt enough for me to have confidence in spending a LOT for something that probably would be a Pre86 sample.

The cutoff for foreign made machine guns to be transferable is that they got here prior to 68 and registered. These were made in 1984

RED FLAG

[Ryo]

Back away quickly.

Likely a scam artist at work.

[ranger1385]

Small world. That's my department. I retired a few years ago, but can find out if it is legit. I can't EVER remember them selling guns. I will check tomorrow and see if it's legit. We did have MP-5's back in the day and keep some at the range to shoot. I haven't observed them being carried on warrants in many, many years.

[johnsonlmg41]

Technically the auction company is "selling" them. They are going to claim they were told by the PD all the info and will attempt to walk away with the money and blame it on the PD's bad info. The buyer will have to decide who to take to court to get their money back.

 

I'm not familiar with the HK serial # system, but that should tell whether these were MP5's or HK94's originally. I have a pre-86 HK94 and the serial number has no prefix and is 4 digit, not a C prefix. If 94's there's still a chance someone converted them before 86 to transferables.....not a good chance though when they could buy sample guns likely for less.

 

Are we doing a group buy on popcorn to watch this one unfold?

 

Maybe the last time they were used was to grab Elion Gonzales? I think that was the Feds though? LOL

Today he'd have the taxpayer suite at the Hilton....how times have changed! but I digress

[Got Uzi]

All we need to know is the date code on the receiver and that will tell the entire story as to if its date of manufacture. Its two letters right in front of the rear sight.

[Grease Gunner]

All we need to know is the date code on the receiver and that will tell the entire story as to if its date of manufacture. Its two letters right in front of the rear sight.

it was IE, one was IF

thats 1984 and 1985

Edited May 24, 2021 by Grease Gunner

[inertord]

Buyer is stuck with a Pre 86 dealer sample and will probably never recoup their money from Miami-Dade. GovDeals is an auction posting platform similar to Gunbroker and Ebay, so no hope of recovering funds or resolving a dispute there.

[Got Uzi]

Sounds like you hit that one on the head as I highly doubt they have conversion guns. Yeah someone screwed the pooch on this one for sure

[maxfaxdude]

The fully transferable unaltered factory MP5 that made it into the US before the GCA of 1968 is one of the holy grails of machinegun collecting that I have been pursuing for many, many years. I've never seen one or heard of one offered for sale. This has been talked about on the HKPro website on several occasions and here's a thread there on this very topic: https://www.hkpro.com/threads/mp5-factory-original-transferable-smg.172589/#post-1294247.

 

Some guestimates have been that less than 10 made it into the US and as such are fully transferable but exceedingly rare. Neal Smith supposedly had half a dozen back in the day and sold them as fully transferables and acted as if they were otherwise nothing special. Either way, if a fully transferable factory MP5 did come up for sale, it would most likely show up at one of the big auction houses or even GB and would probably fetch 6 figures quite easily.

 

Given the above and circumstances here, I HIGHLY doubt that the MP5s Miami-Dade PD has are fully transferable! Sad to say and I think that the inferences made by the seller constitute fraud.

 

As a side note, I read the disclaimer at the bottom of the ad which states:

 

Guaranty Waiver: All property is offered for sale 'AS IS, WHERE IS'. All sales are final. Miami-Dade County makes no warranty, guaranty or representation of any kind, expressed or implied, as to the merchantability or fitness for any purpose of the property offered for sale.

Edited May 25, 2021 by maxfaxdude

[dalbert]

 

I'm not familiar with the HK serial # system, but that should tell whether these were MP5's or HK94's originally. I have a pre-86 HK94 and the serial number has no prefix and is 4 digit, not a C prefix. If 94's there's still a chance someone converted them before 86 to transferables.....not a good chance though when they could buy sample guns likely for less.

 

 

I have two sequentially serial numbered transferable, converted 94s, and they have 4-digit serial numbers like johnsonlmg41 mentions.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[ranger1385]

I was told they are in fact selling the stuff they don't use anymore. I still can't believe it. I would say that the round count will be crazy high on those weapons.

[MG08]

I have purchased a quite a few "MP-5s imported for police use" and in many cases got copies of the paperwork from them transferring them from HK to the LEA. ALL WERE PRE MAY GUNS. There is one sitting in my vault right now. Been there for about 20 years. PLEASE TELL me it really is transferable. ( and prove it)

 

The rules are the rules. Guns imported after 1968 were pre may samples, no matter who got them or who bought them. It does not mean they were only for dealer sales samples. Somebody is getting a very high reading on the BS meter.

[Grease Gunner]

MG08 , you are so correct in what you are saying. The BS meter is out of sight as they brought 48k for each gun. There will be more coming up

[MG08]

I would like to hear the rest of the story on these - pre May or ?

[Got Uzi]

Im curious if someone who paid big money for this can claim fraud based on the gun not being as advertised

[maxfaxdude]

You can file a lawsuit. But you'd most likely be spending good money going after bad. In most US jurisdictions cases in this dollar range are usually settled out of court by arbitration. With most court caseloads backed up due to the pandemic that could take 2 to 3 years or more. The only parties that usually "win" in these cases are the lawyers. So best to stay away from liars like these guys in the first place. Remember you buy the gun, not the story!

[maxfaxdude]

 

Im curious if someone who paid big money for this can claim fraud based on the gun not being as advertised

[1921A]

The answer is, as others have pointed out, these ARE pre-86 sales samples. The C pre-fix serial number range (C-310XXX) shows them to be from the pre-May 19,1986 period. No machine guns imported after the GCA of 1968 are transferable. Ive never seen an exception to that.

 

I sold a lot of new MP5s to law enforcement and took many back in trade. All HK guns made prior to May 19, 1986 are now considered pre Samples. These would have original form 5s from HK to the agency with the purple Law Enforcement restriction designation stamp. Upon later transfer to a dealer, if they were born before 5/19/1986, they would be re-designated restricted to use as a Sales sample. The MDPD MP5s advertised are not going to transfer successfully as unrestricted guns no matter what the department thinks or says. Id bet the farm on that. Sooner or later somebody at NFA will catch the mistake.

Edited June 18, 2021 by 1921A

[Ryo]

I talked to a fellow FFL and he had talked to dealer. Apparently they had 8 or more of these MP5s and to fund the dept with updated equipment, they decided to sell them. They sold most of them already as transferrables from what I was told.

He (fellow FFL who called) was told that that the police dept contacted the ATF to get approval to sell the firearms. They gave the serial # to the ATF as requested, and the ATF came back and told them they were considered transferrables. Supposedly this information they are transferrables came from a higher ups in the ATF, not just one inspector.

 

Now whether this is all true, I have no idea. This is just hearsay from another FFL that called them wanting to find out the details.

[Got Uzi]

Id be looking for them to have that put in writing. Seems sketchy to me looking in from the outside

[Ryo]

I know.. it does. It still blows my mind. BTW I heard the date code on one of the MP5 is 1987 which is clearly not a transferrable.. so it's blowing my mind.

I'm wondering if the ATF comes back and says everything they said earlier is wrong and now your in possession of a illegal SMG.

 

Well I definitely wouldn't touch it. It would have to be a steal of a price to even tempt me, even then.