Need Advice On U.S. Model 12

[Lancer]

Need some help ID ing my M-12.

 

I picked up this U.S. marked Winchester M-12 at a gun show recently. Not real sure what I have and probably paid a little too much for it but I don't see this sort of thing often in my neck of the woods so I took a chance on it.

 

The serial numbers are matching and in the correct range. It has the U.S. /bomb mark on right side of receiver under ejection port. Stock cartouche appears to have been sanded off and stock refinished. Whats left of the cartouche is more visible in pictures than it is to the naked eye. Stock has sling swivel. The 30" barrel is marked "12 GA. - 2 3/4 CHAM. - FULL" the only other mark is a "P" top of barrel just in front of the receiver. The gun has a different magazine end cap than the usual Model 12, it had a nipple on the end cap that fits in the barrel / mag. band requiring the loosening of the barrel band screw in order to remove the barrel /mag. ass.

 

So here is the question. Is this a U.S. long gun used for Aerial Gunners Training or a Trench Gun converted post war for hunting?

 

If it's an Aerial Gunners Training gun, I will of course leave it as it is. If, however it's a post war civilian converted trench gun, I'll start looking for the parts to restore it to it's original condition.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12009.jpg

[dalbert]

Lancer,

 

Could you post an overall photo of the M12?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[jim c 351]

Lancer,

Your receiver is definately military issue.

I think the gun was a converted trench gun. The M12 gunnery training guns would have been just like a civilian M12 except for military stamping. Could have had a 26 or 30 inch barrel.

Your gun has a sling swivel in the but stock.=Trench gun

Your gun has a Trench gun mag cap.

Your barrel is stamped different than my riot gun , as pictured in the pinned section. Heres how my barrel is stamped.

 

2 3/4 CHAM

MADE IN NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.OF AMERICA----WINCHESTER----MODEL 12--12 GA.

-----WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL---- --TRADE MARK-- CYL

 

Hope this helps.

Jim C

PS Ordnance bomb in front of "P" on barrel.

Edited October 30, 2012 by jim c 351

[dalbert]

Lancer,

 

According to Bruce Canfield's Combat Shotgun book, your serial number falls right in the middle of the trench gun range noted in government documents, and supported by his observation of existing examples. While not 100%, that's a pretty good indicator. He indicates that Model 12 Riot and Aerial Training models were of lesser production than Trench models. Perhaps he will see this, and weigh in on the conversation.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Lancer]

Jim c351, thanks for weighing in on this, you confirmed what I already suspected.

 

David, thank you as well. I'll take an overall picture tomorrow and post.

 

So.....this leads to a few more questions. To restore this to it's original trench gun configuration I need what? Correct barrel and heat shield? I'm guessing you don't see these parts everyday. Best bet would be Gunbroker, E-bay and Sturmgewehr? What should I expect to have to pay for these parts? Or is this a futile enendeavor?

Edited October 30, 2012 by Lancer

[jim c 351]

Lancer,

Unless you really luck out it will probably not be easy to accomplish. Finding a heat shield and a trench barrel will probably not be easy to find and probably be expensive. You probably already know that the trench barrels are different from the riot barrels. The fact that some are using these parts to make repro trench guns out of commercial M12s only makes matters worse.

It may be quicker to find a riot barrel and mag cap parts, but the barrel would have to be stamped like mine and you would still have the matter of the sling swivel in the stock.

Did you ask the seller who he bought the gun from. The missing parts are probably rusting away in his basement.

Good luck.

Jim C

[Lancer]

David, here is the overall picture you requested.

 

Jim.

Yes, I'm sure you are right about being lucky and expensive. Yes, I'm aware of the difference between riot & trench barrels. There was what looked to be a genuine military riot barrel on E-bay ending last night. Auction opening bid was $299 with no takers until the last few seconds. I put a bid in of $315 but was out bid, went for $320. I guess I'll just keep watching for parts and let what turns up determine the direction I go with this. Is there anyone making repro parts out there?

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Lancer1717/Board%20pics/Model12002.jpg

[emmagee1917]

Repro heatshields for 97s / 12s are out there. Some are better than others. Noone makes repro trench bbls AFAIK .

I have a nice model 12 GI marked buttstock I picked up on the loose . Don't recall if it has the swivel cut. If you decide to go the riot or arial route I can dig it out for you and check . I'd just trade you straight across. I think it has the buttplate.

Chris

[jim c 351]

Lancer,

http://www.jouster.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?19-Military-Shotguns

Suggest you monitor this site, if your not already doing so.

A barrel or heat schield may turn up.

Jim C

[Lancer]

Jim C. thanks for the tip.

 

Chris, I would appreciate it if you would check your stock and see exactly what you have.

[emmagee1917]

Glad to . Getting packed for a show this weekend . See if I can spot it . If not then I'll have to wait till next week for the time. Think I know where it is , though.

Chris

[emmagee1917]

Right where I thought it was ( that's a first ) . It is a riot style ( no swivel ) with the buttplate . Looks near new . WB in a square and cross cannons .

 

Now , it was sold to me as a model 12 . Is there an easy way to double check it to make sure it's not a '97 ?

 

Chris

[Bruce Canfield]

It appears there are no martial markings on the barrel which would seem to indicate the gun was originally a trench gun that a subsequent civilian owner modified. The sling swivel on the stock is also indicative of a trench gun. Finding the parts to restore the gun to its original configuration will be both difficult and expensive. Unlike a riot barrel, the trench gun barrel does not taper and will have three transverse grooves milled into the bottom. It will also have a flaming bomb and US marking on top. Original WRA handguard/bayonet adapter assemblies are rare and quite expensive (when one can be found). If the gun was properly restored, it would most likely be worth the effort and the cost but it will be a daunting task unless you are very lucky.

[Lancer]

Bruce

Thank you very much for your expert analysis, I greatly appreciate your input.

 

Chris,

Thank you for digging out your stock. I think I'm going to leave the m-12 the way it is hoping to get lucky and find the correct parts someday. I don't think a WB marked stock would be correct for the serial # anyway.

 

In the meantime, I think I'm going to have the local gunsmith cut the barrel down to 20 in., at least it'll look a little like what it once was.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Lancer

[jim c 351]

Lancer,

It would be a shame to ruin a nice Win full choke barrel when a proper barrel may be right around the corner.

Patience my good man, patience.

Here's another site to monitor.---

www.winchestercollector.org/forum/index.php.

Good hunting,-- Best of luck.

Jim C

[Lancer]

Lancer,

It would be a shame to ruin a nice Win full choke barrel when a proper barrel may be right around the corner.

Patience my good man, patience.

Here's another site to monitor.---

www.winchestercollector.org/forum/index.php.

Good hunting,-- Best of luck.

Jim C

 

Jim c

Thanks for the link.

 

The barrel is a bastard no brand barrel, not a Winchester marked barrel. Am I wrong in thinking it's value is minimal beyond it's intrinsic worth? My thinking was that if I ever sold the barrel, an unbranded 20 in. Model 12 barrel would be more valuable / easier to sell than an unbranded 30 in. full choke (very common) Model 12 barrel.

[jim c 351]

Lancer,

As the barrel sits now, 2 types of people might buy it.

1.--Someone who wants a full choke barrel,---

And 2. someone who wants to buy the barrel and cut it shorter.

Once you cut it only buyer #2 will be interested.

Jim C

[Lancer]

Lancer,

As the barrel sits now, 2 types of people might buy it.

1.--Someone who wants a full choke barrel,---

And 2. someone who wants to buy the barrel and cut it shorter.

Once you cut it only buyer #2 will be interested.

Jim C

 

I see what you're saying Jim but, in my view, anybody looking for a 30 in. full choke Model 12 barrel is going to quickly find out that original Winchester marked barrels are easily found, not quite so much with 20 in. barrels even if unmarked and cut down. I think cutting the barrel down and resetting the front sight will enhance the value especially if done correctly. The barrel has limited value the way it sets so I'm not risking much. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[emmagee1917]

Unless you would use this bbl hunting. Remember it is set up to fit the trench gun mag set up . Would that add anything to your thinking ?

Chris

[Lancer]

Unless you would use this bbl hunting. Remember it is set up to fit the trench gun mag set up . Would that add anything to your thinking ?

Chris

 

I did a lot of hunting when I was young, my knees don't hold up well to tramping around in the woods anymore besides I still have my hunting guns.

The magazine end cap & barrel band are very common and easily found. I can make this look like a riot gun for a very minimal amount of money and still be able to restore it to it's original trench gun configuration without any trouble when I find the parts. The only real question is, do I want to chop up this barrel? If there ever was a barrel a guy could chop up and not feel bad about doing it, it's this one. This barrel is the most undesirable (unbranded) of the most common (30" FULL choke).

[TSMGguy]

Lancer,

 

Hope that you find the parts you're looking for! I have a source for this kind of thing and have put in an inquiry on your behalf.

 

Another problem arises in that Winchester stamped the year date on the bottom of their trench gun barrels. This date would need to match your serial number range on any barrel that you find.

[Lancer]

Lancer,

 

Hope that you find the parts you're looking for! I have a source for this kind of thing and have put in an inquiry on your behalf.

 

Another problem arises in that Winchester stamped the year date on the bottom of their trench gun barrels. This date would need to match your serial number range on any barrel that you find.

 

TSMGguy,

Your efforts on my behalf are greatly appreciated. I understand the problem with the barrel date but finding a barrel of any date would at least open up the possibility trading for the correct date.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Lancer

[TSMGguy]

I have just one acquaintance who's been able to find an original Model 12 trench barrel in the last year. He's keeping it for now. He paid $750 for it, and is still looking for the bayonet mount. He's the same guy in Louisana who converts commercial Stevens shotguns into trench guns, DBA Counterfeit Trench Guns, LLC. (Don't laugh too hard, his quality is really excellent!) He had plans for awhile of offering Winchester model 12s converted to the trench configuration, but had to shelve his plans as he could not find parts.

 

Say, have you considered converting your gun by cutting down the barrel and using a high qualty reproduction bayonet mount while you search for the right barrel? The folks linked below have just such mounts. I believe they are made to accomodate the commercial barrel taper. Looks like they have magazine plugs also. Just a thought. They also make these units for Stevens 520 and 620 shotguns. I have two them on my "counterfeit" guns and they look right and are made of steel. These are not the poorly made cast units with thin hand guards that were available years ago.

 

http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/winreparts.html

 

If you decide to go this route, let me know and I'll measure the barrel on my 1942 M12 trench gun for you so you'll know just where to cut.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2012 by TSMGguy

[Lancer]

TSMGguy

 

I do intend to cut down the barrel on this gun, we discussed this earlier in this thread. I have a couple of ways to go on this, one is to cut the barrel down to 20 inches and mount the repro bayonet mount/heat shield. The other is to cut the barrel and convert it to riot gun configuration.

 

Both options have there pro's & con's.

 

The 30" full choke barrel that is on the gun right now is a bastard barrel without any branding at all. It also does not have the notches for the magazine holding ban common to Model 12s just a long smooth barrel. This may be a good thing because I don't think trench gun barrels have this feature either though I'm not yet sure of that fact. So....this would seem to be the easier option, just cut down the barrel and mount the repro bayonet mount/heat shield. The down side is that the gun would not only be lacking the proper military markings on the barrel but also the appropriate Winchester branding as well. My biggest concern was the quality of the repro bayonet mount/heat shield but you're saying the quality is pretty good?

 

To convert the gun to riot configuration seems to be a bit more problematic. To make it correct, I would need to find another barrel & magazine assembly to cut down because the magazine tube is different on the riot gun also the stock would need changed as well because of the riot gun does not have a sling swivel.

 

I think I'll be converting to trench gun configuation but I'm not giving up on trying to find the correct parts..

[TSMGguy]

I think you'll be well pleased with the quality of the repro mounts as linked above. This might be a really inexpensive temporary fix while your search continues for the right components. You'll probably really like the way the gun turns out, once you have the new mount installed and have added an M1907 sling. The gun would make a great shooter, or a fine choice for home defense.

 

IIRC, there's no difference between the mounts that Winchester used on the M1897 and M12 trench guns. Looks like you already have the correct magazine plug.

 

Two things: It would take an expert to tell that the gun is not original, and not everyone's an expert. I shoot my Stevens "counterfeits" regularly. No one has yet noticed that they are not authentic trench guns. These guns scratched the itch so well that I've given up looking for a nice Stevens 520 and 620 trench gun, unless one should just happen to fall into my lap someday!

 

Here's my own 1942 dated M12. I need to work up better photos.

Edited November 27, 2012 by TSMGguy