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J.c. Devine Auction


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I did not read PhilOhio's entire post, but I state again -- there is no reason to suspect fraud just because the bidder for someone did not get a bid in on time!

 

Geez. They just did not shout or raise their hand fast enough. I am telling you -- if you were on the phone with them you would understand.

 

I explained why I did not know what I paid -- it is because my bidder said to me "Ok, that gun went for $X,XXX" so I assumed someone else won it. She should have said "You got that gun for $X,XXX."

 

If she had said that, I would have committed it to memory. Once I found out it was me who bought them, she had to quickly go to bid for someone else, so I had no time to ask for a recap.

Edited by rsilvers
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This is weirdest auction results I have ever heard of. I've attended many auctions in person in my life, and the autioneers spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for bidders to increase the price on even the most picayune items.

 

To me, it's not in the realm of reaonsonableness for this auction to have been conducted as described unless something was very seriously amiss.

 

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QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 8 2004, 11:52 AM)
If Devine sold one gun for a price lower than a bid which he had, that is fraud.  The seller is the victim, under law of agency.  And the high bidder is also the victim, having been cheated out of the item.  Devine might claim it was the fault of some careless employee manning a telephone.  That is his responsibility, probably actionable.  Something really stinks here.

Those are some pretty strong statements you're making. In order for there to be fraud there has to be a second party involved and since it is one of our board members...... I did do auctioneering school but am not a lawyer, so I will just give personal opinions... Unless the auctioneer has a shill bidding and ends the bidding prematurely to his benefit, as in sell it higher later, there is no fraud. An auctioneer can in fact bid on items for himself, this is common. It is better if it is announced before bidding starts, but not mandatory. In this case though I see no benefit to the auctioneer as they are paid a percentage on gross, and trust me they want to maximize their profits. Looks like a missed bid to me... Which is crappy for the loser but is not a crime....

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I point to the sentence taken directly from the online bid form for J.C. Devine below.

NOW that does not mean I think J.C. Devine gets a get out of jail card on the issues raised here for free BUT this is their disclaimer.

The bigger issue for them is getting potential sellers and buyers of Thompsons in the future since I am going to bet we are the only group going over the details like this.

 

michael

 

I understand that J. C. Devine, Inc. will execute my bids as a convenience and will not be held responsible for any

errors or failure to execute bids.

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PhilOhio -- I have no reason to confront anyone. I am not unhappy with anything. My bidder did the best job she could, but if I wanted to be more certain I would have made the effort to go there and bid for myself. Bidding over the phone is clearly, after I have done the experience, leaving something to chance.
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QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Mar 9 2004, 12:46 PM)
Z3BigDaddy,

There are many different kinds of wrongdoing in which an auctioneer or broker might engage.  You are addressing only one narrow category, and you may be right about that.  It does not relate to some of the other issues raised by bidders here, nor the things which I found most disturbing.  Long ago, I spent a few years in the real estate business, licensed in the District of Columbia and Maryland.  I had to learn quite a lot about the law of agency, what I could and could not do, and what was definitely punishable and why.  I had to periodically take written tests to prove that I understood all this, to remain certified to represent sellers in multimillion dollar transactions.  This is a major hot potato among brokers and auctioneers.  It is the one thing which most frequently is their undoing.  I'm not blowing smoke when I say something is amiss here.  And I do not accept all the rationalizations for looking the other way.  But that is the business of those of you who were directly involved.

Please don't try to interpolate realty law with rules of auctioneering. I'm in insurance and know all about E&O, and fiduciary responsibility involved. It many states auctioneering is totally unregulated no licenses etc.. Auctioneering by it's nature is a pretty freewheeling proposition... When your contract with someone is based on the raising of the hand, or a scratch of the nose, you really can't expect it to be and exact science. I think you're reading far to much into this but just like you this is only mho.....

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So what if I could have? Are you saying in a few years I won't be able to sell these? It is not like I used my entire budget on these and if a better one comes along I cannot buy it also.

 

I needed something to jumpstart my collection and get the pressure of of having nothing. Now if you know someone who will sell me their best Thompson for $24,000, instead of their worst, then I am interested in seeing it. But now I can relax and whenever I see a better one I will consider it.

 

I try not to rag on other people guns. When I see an HK conversion without a paddle mag release, or a poor restamp, or missing a 3-lug barrel -- I take note of it and silenty poo-poo it, but I don't write them and tell them they gun stinks.

Edited by rsilvers
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QUOTE I needed something to jumpstart my collection and get the pressure of of having nothing.

 

RS,

But you do seem content to acquire your knowledge about specific types of Class III weapons after you have already purchased them. Who, or what, is the source for all this pressure on you to compile as many NFA weapons, regardles of quality, as possible in the shortest amount of time?

 

QUOTE Now if you know someone who will sell me their best Thompson for $24,000, instead of their worst, then I am interested in seeing it.

 

Did you see the Devine guns you bid on in person sometime prior to the auction?

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The pressure is the prices going up rapidly. But now that I have some, I can slow down. I did not feel like I risked much since I believe they will increase in value and I cannot really lose. However, I agree that I may not be content with them in the future as I learn more and see more.

 

I tried to go see them, but they had stopped the viewing period. So no. I will see them tomorrow though.

 

I try for quality but if I have no example of that specific model of gun I am less picky because I want to get one in. Since I have some now, I will suddenly get picky. I turned down an offer today of an M1A because someone had cut it for a drum, added a vertical foregrip, and a ribbed barrel. Imagine that. So you can see, there are some guns I would never consider.

Edited by rsilvers
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"Reading too much into this? I think not. Just my humble opinion? No, I don't join you in saying that."

 

I'm glad someone has all the facts, and understands the world of litigation.... I guess it's the American way now..... Litigation and Thompson Greed what a great combo.... Just like love and marriage, guess they go together... Add another person to my "do not deal with" list.....

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Hey, give the guy a break. If he's happy with the three guns he bought, that's his business, not anyone else's. At least this guy puts his dollars where his mouth is.

 

Personally, I would have been very happy to won 1513 for that price. But what do I know, I'm the new guy.

 

Snipershot1944@yahoo.com

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Here, here, sniper!!! You got that right! Everyone here bitches about high prices, but I never see anyone offering "cheap" guns to keep the prices down... Well except when ron finally cracks open the two cases of drums for $350.00 a pop he promised. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Same with people bitching about ebaYâ„¢ then putting on their own ebaYâ„¢ auctions at incredible prices.... Doesn't always make sense does it.... Just a leetle bit of hypocrisy floating around here...
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I looked over the colt guns that RSilvers purchased.

 

I think he did just fine. Remember Arthur, that not everyone is a colt whore and is out to buy a 98% colt Thompson to stare at. Being the kind of collector that you are (or I assume you are) does not give you the right to condecend to someone just because they have different tastes in guns than you do. This man now owns 3 colt Thompsons.

 

The NAC is a colt. He probably does not care if Geo. Nurmrich or whoever put this gun together outside of the colt factory years later. This may not matter to him. It wouldn't matter to me.

 

To each his own, and congrats Ron Silvers on your purchases. Welcome to the Thompson community and join our chat live talk sessions on Sunday nights.

 

John Jr

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John J,

RS has been buying Class III weapons at a feverish pace for several months now. It seems he has some serious cash to spend on them, and therefore not confined to entry level type examples. It has nothing to do with being a "Colt whore" as your persiflage suggests, but rather everything to do with gnomic choices.

 

Since when have you ever condoned paying $19,500 for a Colt TSMG anyway? Or is this an Epiphany on your part? And were you not always critical of the Devine auction, their guns, and anyone who takes part in it?

 

As far as that NAC 5 gun, take a good look at the font on the word "Colt's" on the receiver. That's a new one on me.

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Just making observations on your post... Don't understand the crying spitball thing... but hey what ever.... Please enlighten me on anything I misconstrued.....

And BTW, why did you assume I was talking of you on the trust thing? You sure I didn't mean Devine? Just curious....

 

BTW since you are a fellow Auto Mag'r thought you might want to look at one of "my" auctions.... I can't even sell garbage cheap...ebaYâ„¢ garbarge....

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Yes, three. I called them today and verified. Every 'Colt' 1921a they had (I despise compensators because they are 'loudeners' -- the opposite of 'silencers').

 

The NAC5 might become my everyday shooter providing it shoots well (to the extent that I find time to fire any specific gun).

 

Detailed pics tomorrow. I am going into their vault tomorrow.

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Arthur,

 

You are right (did I just type that?) about the JC Devine Auction and my opinions about these auctions.

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invb...=1341&hl=devine

 

And when you find out what happened to the phone bidders and the other things that happened later, you will see why I posted that. Not to mention that I posted in that thread LONG before the auction ever went off.

 

You are a colt snob (whore is a bit strong, I know) and everyone knows that. I have respect for that, but you have no respect for anything other than colt and thats what I was talking about.

 

Join our live voice chats on Sunday nights and you will learn more.

 

Jr

 

BTW during the first 2 weeks in April there will be no chat sessions as I will be hunting the elusive Eastern Wild Turkey here in Arkansas. The longbeards are calling!

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The roll stamp, and COLT font on the NAC 5 photo appear to be quite genuine, based on some detailed photo comparison I did.

 

Unfortunately, using white stick to highlight font, can distort it.

 

Years ago, in the early 1970's, I belonged to a Corvette club. We would have meetings, and sit around and drink beer, and swap parts and generally have fun with our cars making them run great, look nice, and have informal meets.

 

Then the collectors got involved as the prices went up---the people that never really worked on their cars, they just had the money to buy them and buy the best restoration that was already done by somebody else--- and the fun went out of it, as one of them would come up to your vintage Corvette and start ragging that the rearview mirror was from a 1962 car and that you had the gall to put that 1962 mirror on your 1961 car, and his 1961 car had all the correct parts, and even an NCRS cert of originality, blah, blah, blah.... I and the original members quit the clubs soon after, and I decided the Hot Rod crowd was where I belonged.

 

Doug

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I have been trying to figure out how to modify my will so that my TSMG's get sold at an affordable price to someone who WANTS them, not someone interested in making a quick profit, or adding to an existing collection.

 

Someone that really wants one, but can't afford it.

 

BTW, I hope this situation doesn't arise for another 40 years or so. :-)

 

Doug

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