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Intro and another Kahr SBR Thread


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Hello all and many thanks for the add. I have been a lurker here for quite some time, awaiting the right rifle to purchase and time to SBR it - and the time has finally arrived!

I was able to purchase a lightly used Kahr/AO semi-auto 1927A1 with 30rd stick and 50rd drum locally from a range owner's personal collection. The rifle was manufactured in Feb 2013 and was sent back at the owners expense last year to be re-worked and tweaked at the factory for reliability. What came back, and what I purchased has been completely reliable with 500rds through the pipe, about half drum and the other stick.

At the end of the day I want to model my finished SBR after the early WWII Thompson 1928 models seen issued in the South Pacific - receiver with top bolt handle, finned barrel, 10.5in barrel, Cutts Comp on the front.

I have reached out to Thompsonbarrels.com for guidance on the barrel and have been very fortunate to connect with and discuss how to get from A to B as I am new to this platform.

I am looking for a local Gunsmith to do the work and have found one not too far away - he has not worked on the platform personally but seems to be on the right footing - will do research, knows folks who have, and if he feels he wont be able to do the work he will be happy to admit it once he has gained what knowledge he needs and takes a look at the rifle personally.

Lastly is of course the bureaucratic part - Eform 1 is submitted and prints are en-route as of Monday. Present processing times seem to be in the 30-day-ish time-frame so I am trying to get the logistics on my end solved so when I get the stamp I can go-go-gadget SBR.

I know this intro has rambled on a bit - again thanks for the add. If anything above seems out of whack I am open to all thoughts and suggestions from the experts here. I know other milsurp platforms like the back of my hand but the Thompson world is new to me so I have quite a bit to learn here.

 

Pics below are:

As purchased (vertical fore-grip)

Current configuration (horizontal grip for SBR once finished, repro-sling)


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Edited by tgoldie00
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Since your did the form 1 you need to make the barrel short before you give it to the gunsmith. That means you take a saw to the barrel at 10 inches that fulfills the requirements. then he can swap it for the nice barrel. Your 16 inch barrel has little value... There are special tools for Thomson barrel removel, but some people improvise
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Understood and many thanks for the insight. I did discuss with the smith that there is the potential to damage the receiver which of course is not something I am interested in doing after cost of rifle, tax stamp, etc. He was very up-front (and for that matter humble) that he will research, and if he feels in ANY way that the successful surgery will kill the patient that he will stop and gladly return the rifle in the condition to which it was provided him.

 

He also did mention that if he needed to purchase tools he would do so - are they custom or do they exist out there in the world for easier acquisition? I know you are certainly authority in the matter (and also backed up a bit at present) so your thoughts are and will be valued.

Since your did the form 1 you need to make the barrel short before you give it to the gunsmith. That means you take a saw to the barrel at 10 inches that fulfills the requirements. then he can swap it for the nice barrel. Your 16 inch barrel has little value... There are special tools for Thomson barrel removel, but some people improvise

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Although I used a borrowed barrel wrench to change mine, I've seen it done with penetrating oil, an old leather belt to protect the barrel, a bench vise to chuck the receiver nose into, and an adjustable pipe wrench to turn out the barrel.

 

Rob

Edited by ghostsoldier
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You would not regret sending your gun to a good Thompson mechanic like deerslayer ... You can send your gun and receive back to your residence though the USPS (unless things have changed since I sent mine) Removing a Thompson barrel is not that difficult if you have the tools at hand to do so ... A Thompson barrel clamp is a must. Deerslayer does fine work, he barreled my gun and it runs great ... Over 700 rounds though it since he did the work. He can also rework your lower to really step up the authenticity that you are looking for. including a new stock.

 

You've taken the plunge .. Might as well go all the way.

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Since your did the form 1 you need to make the barrel short before you give it to the gunsmith. That means you take a saw to the barrel at 10 inches that fulfills the requirements. then he can swap it for the nice barrel. Your 16 inch barrel has little value... There are special tools for Thomson barrel removel, but some people improvise

This is news to me. Why do you have to shorten a barrel on a Form 1 build before you install a short barrel ? Is this a new requirement ?

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A Tommy gun is probly one of the harder guns to make into an SBR. Compare this to a modern AR. You can buy a short barrel upper ready to go no work involved, just file the form 1, when it comes back, buy it, pop the old upper and lower apart, put on the new one, get the nfa engraving done and you are good. Not that easy with a Tommy.

 

 

You understand a form 1 is that YOU(!) are making the sbr, and you put barrel length and overall length on the form 1.

 

If you don't do the work, then you haven't fulfilled the form 1 requirements. If your dealer takes off a 16 inch barrel and puts on a 10 inch then he made the sbr and that is a form 2 job, then a form 4 back to you. FFL 07 dealers have a lot of money into FFL, sot, and ITAR.. Most follow the rules scrupulously...

 

Now if you can take the 16 inch barrel off, and you put on the new short 10 inch barrel then that works. But if you can't do that, then cutting it before you take it to the dealer also works. Then the dealer is only swapping one short barrel for another he isn't making the sbr. It's already an SBR when he gets it in hand.

 

If you have lots of time.. And he is close.. You could have him take off the 16 inch barrel, then take it home and you screw on the 10 inch one, then take it back to him to tighten. You've done the form 1 work. The hacksaw route is simpler in my opinion.

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Interesting. ARs and Uzis are indeed easy swaps, barrel wise. Also easier, adding a stock ,no barrel work at all, like the GSG MP40 or the PPS 43. Ive done Form 1s on all of them,, except the 43. Tommies are harder, but darn it ,they are worth the effort. Edited by anticus
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Im not trying to throw gas on a fire here as Im no BATFE expert for NFA concerns, but my understanding is that if the length is changed of a barrel, that this can be done as long as the applied for length barrel is readily available and that the change is temporary in nature.

 

So semantics - lets put a theoretical case out there. My stamp comes back for the 10.5in barrel and I have the new barrel in-hand. The 16in configuration is then technically the temporary configuration, with the stated barrel in-hand but not yet applied.

 

As I mentioned its all semantics. Also - what if I am present for the modification and am supervising it? Am I fulfilling the requirements?

 

I am not refuting anything being contributed here at all, just adding food for thought. The nature of my work puts me in contact with 3-letter law enforcement officers (not BATFE) on a regular basis and a few are personal friends. We are all NFA junkies generally of the suppressed variety - but often have these debates for fun. The general impression is - as long as the spirit of the law is being observed there isnt necessarily a problem. Anyways..just my thoughts.

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A FFL 07 is supposed to do his work at his official licensed premises, if he does work at another location, then it requires another license. Same as selling guns, at your licensed location or an approved venue..

 

So.. your form 1 build is supposed to be done at your location...not your supervision at a different location.

 

And yes, spirit of the law is common.. there are bigger fish to fry. But if your not going to follow nfa rules you shouldn't post how your not going to do it on an open forum.. I'm hoping all this is informative.. Not a bonfire..

 

In the Obama years there was a push to get rid of dealers regulation wise. For example gun bluing was determined to be a manufacturing process thus needing an 07 license and not something an 01 FFL could do. Push 01 dealers to become 07 (along with the extra fees) or to drop their license altogether...And ramp up ITAR enforcement... A bunch of dealers quit during this time.

 

Welcome to the regulation world...

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All fair points and I have every intention of following the law to the letter - so the insight is appreciated. My career and livelihood depend on that - so if that means I separate a few inches of barrel and relieve them of their original configuration I wont be the one arguing - for sure.

It is funny in a way trying to apply modern firearms versus older law, even moreso when interpreting it with a firearm that was part of the original consideration when drafting said laws if not just initially. As you mentioned earlier, there really isnt any tangible recoverable value to the OEM barrel so there is no real sacrifice being made at the end of the day.

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So here is another fun thing to think about.. Why is there an SBR category in the first place? Well, they were gonna make pistols be nfa items. If you do that well you can't have the the common folk making a pistol from a rifle by cutting it down. Then pistols got dropped from nfa, but cutting down a rifle didn't. So SBR is nfa.
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I bought my Kahr Thompson 1927A-1 in 2001, and it was made in 2000. Then, the gun went through the entire process of making it a SBR, and modifications and parts replacements until it resembles a 1928 Thompson as much as humanly possible. So, I know exactly where you want to go with your gun. First off, you should view this as a project gun. After all the changes, you almost certainly not get all the money out of it, should you choose to sell it. I planned on keeping mine, so that was a non-issue. The process was made over 19 years, since the project was not high priority.

The mag release lever was replaced with a WWII original part, hoping to make GI mags fit properly, The change in the mag catch location was in the right direction, but not enough to make GI box mags fit, probably due to Kahr changing the location of the pin that the mag catch lever rotates on. The Kahr drums at that time were absolute junk. The pressure required by the bolt to push cartridge into chamber was extreme, and the drum often failed to feed. Major disappointment. It was sold it as a wall hanger to a fellow who wanted it for a dummy gun for $50, then spent $850 and $900 respectively for two WWII era Tommy drums which function perfectly. Ouch, but problem solved.

The firing pin tip broke off one day while out shooting in 2002, and Kahr lost my order TWICE, and it took 6 months to get a replacement. What made up for that is I ordered a spare pin only a couple months back in 2020 and it came about 13 days. Service is hot and cold with Kahr, or rather cold and hot.

I machined the barrel shaped charging handle round on the lathe, reshaped and refinished the front and rear grips because they were literally flat slaps of wood with the edges knocked off. For the buttstock, an aluminum stock latch plate with a flat steel attachment plate for the receiver was purchased an installed. The paint flakes off the aluminum latch which is unsightly. The receiver was ground and sanded to reshape the area from the WWII profile to the 1928 profile just above the grip, in order to fit the butt stock latch plate onto the receiver with rivets. Kahr used one style of lower receiver for all models of Thompsons.

Next was getting the 10" barrel installed. The rifle was registered with BATFE in 2003 of a Form 1, and after that I purchased the 10.5" barrel from Kahr for $190, which had them available off their website at the time. There's $200 spent there. A local retired gunsmith agreed to install the barrel. However, he had to machine and install a sleeve under the Cutts compensator on the new barrel because the diameters on the front end were different. Thanks again, Kahr Arms. He also re-blued the lower receiver because of the reshaping I did. The extra work made the install cost $120.

At the Tulsa, OK gun in 2017, I found a fellow selling parts taken from Russian lend lease Thompsons, and bought a beautiful rear Lyman sight assembly for $150. Huge score there since they were going for much more here in the States at that time. I riveted it onto the Kahr Tommy, but it's sort of like putting a diamond ring on a pig. After looking at the cheap aluminum butt stock latch assembly one last time, it was time for as change, so I made a steel one to replace it on the milling machine and blued it. It worked and fits perfectly.

A new set of lighter recoil springs and polymer buffer plate were installed to make operating the bolt easier. The parts were ordered from McMaster Carr (https://www.mcmaster.com) and are listed below:

9637K65 pack of 5 ea 11" long - cut to 10" $12.86

8789K32 polyurethane sheet 6"x6"x3/16" Dur 60A $15.61

The last and final modification was made by Dan in Iowa (Deerslayer), who did a masterful job disposing of that ridiculous "third hand" tool Kahr made you use to engage the bolt hold back latch. He installed a WWII triple leaf spring to replace the double leaf spring from Kahr on the right side of the receiver, and installed a rotating lever in the place where the semi/full auto lever normally goes, except that this level engages the bolt hold back when flipped to the rear. The work cost $320, but that's more than fair considering the complexity of hand crafting and heat treating some internal parts to pull off this modification. Lastly, my name and place of residence was laser engraved by a local engraver for $50, making the metamorphosis from a long barreled, clumsy looking gun into one that looks as close to a 1928 Thompson as you can possibly get.

I hope this helps you understand when you're getting into. Best wishes!

 

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Edited by DARIVS
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DARIVS,

Thanks for sharing that awesome story of your rifle! I love project guns, especially those that take some time and work to realize to their full potential. This certainly isnt the first, nor will it be the last!

 

I am going to sort through this initial set of hurdles and easy mods to get to SBR and then go from there. I was able to check out barrels today locally and have chosen a black oxide polished barrel of the 1928 variety (polished to match the receiver, color should be dead-on) with fins, non-raduised fins to give it a more authentic and true to form feel. Im keeping the Kahr Cutts Compensator and anticipate that will take a little fitting to make right of course, so I picked the non -threaded barrel to accommodate that.

 

I am fortunate that the stock, wood-wise is pretty nice. Better than you described yours was out of the box. It actually has some nice figure and a couple of coats of BLO so far have started to draw that out. Surprisingly, the horizontal fore-grip Kahr sent me has some lovely vertical striping in it that will look awesome with a little sanding and liberal applications of BLO which is exciting.

 

I love your build execution of the hold-back (my key or third-hand) was awful. It was not to spec and got stuck in the rifle. I had to take material off of all four corners, Stone all four flats, and knock a hair off of the nose to get it to function - which it does now flawlessly (if not awkwardly of course).

 

I will say my 30rd mag and drum thus far have both been flawless. When I took possession of the rifle the drum had a couple of dings on the outside I had to hammer back to flat, and the internal guide-channel fins (Im sure there is a real technical term for those) were bent out of shape in a couple of spots, also easily remedied.

 

In its current form the sights are nearly dead-center at 25 yards, although windage of course would be nice. Ill revisit replacing with a vintage sight (expensive) if that gets worse with the replacement barrel. Im a bit worried that the shorter sight radius might exacerbate the issue (would likely be off 3-4in to the right at 100 yards). If not, Im not dreadfully concerned. The ladder is basically useless to me given how close the aperture is to my eye when up.

 

Planning and parts accumulation to continue while I await the ATFs processing...and overall Im very excited to get this moving in the right direction!

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Very nice Thompsons. Dan did my sbr bbl swap, ez take down mod and 1928 buttstock mod on my 1927a1. Great work and a very nice guy. Still waiting for my stock slide to arrive. Supposedly being held up by US customs. Like your mantle there Darivs. You cover it all, from a ballista, a 1873 or ‘76 Winchester [what caliber is it] and a Tommy. I had a muzzle loader that I had built hanging over my fireplace. Don’t have the rifle or the fireplace anymore.

Edited by Baltimoreed11754
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In its current form the sights are nearly dead-center at 25 yards, although windage of course would be nice. Ill revisit replacing with a vintage sight (expensive) if that gets worse with the replacement barrel. Im a bit worried that the shorter sight radius might exacerbate the issue (would likely be off 3-4in to the right at 100 yards). If not, Im not dreadfully concerned. The ladder is basically useless to me given how close the aperture is to my eye when up.

 

Planning and parts accumulation to continue while I await the ATFs processing...and overall Im very excited to get this moving in the right direction!

 

The advantage of the Lyman sight is that it has a windage adjustment. So if your barrel is not perfectly aligned, the sight may be adjusted right or left even with the ladder folder down.

Edited by DARIVS
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Very nice Thompsons. Dan did my sbr bbl swap, ez take down mod and 1928 buttstock mod on my 1927a1. Great work and a very nice guy. Still waiting for my stock slide to arrive. Supposedly being held up by US customs. Like your mantle there Darivs. You cover it all, from a ballista, a 1873 or ‘76 Winchester [what caliber is it] and a Tommy. I had a muzzle loader that I had built hanging over my fireplace. Don’t have the rifle or the fireplace anymore.

The ballista project was particularly fun...

 

Ballista-Portrait-Rear.jpg

 

Ballista-House.jpg

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Here is my SBR Khar 1927 "Commando" that was re done to look like a 1928a1ac

If you ever want to replace the stock, go with the reworked lower that allows for a detachable stock ... I should do mine, but I have run out of interest on the project.

 

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  • 5 months later...

155 days for a tax stamp and a couple of weeks lead time to work with my preferred local smith for the barrel swap we have a 1928A1 replica from my Kahr 1927A1.

 

Barrel is from Thompson Barrels and is a non-radiussed/finned 10.5in, non-threaded muzzle and the Kahr Cutts/sight re-pinned.

 

The barrel came off with a bit of heat and a good bit of force but it wasnt as bad as either of us anticipated. Having said that I dont think he will be taking these on a regular basis. Lol

 

Will be shooting it tomorrow but it looks great!

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Edited by tgoldie00
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