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Colt 21A #1908


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Got this 21A out and shot up some jpegs today. It has a pretty interesting history. Looks like it was shipped to Colorado Sporting Goods Company back in April of 1926. It disappeared until Jan of 1956 when it was found along with another Thompson in a wine cask in the Broadmore Hotel in Colorado Springs, Colorado. During a major renovation project workers were cleaning out the cellar and when they moved one of the wine cask out they heard something rolling around inside. They opened it up and there were these two 21's wrapped in some oil rags. El Paso County Sheriff's Department was called and they confiscated both of them. A Deputy Sheriff registered both of them during the 68 Amnesty Act. In 1975 he traded some more modern weapons to the department for both on them. He sold one to his friend and kept the other. Years later his family sold it to me.



This story came from the Deputy's wife and I confirmed it with one of the old timers that was still around. I can't help but wonder how / why they were stashed away in a wine cask in the cellar of that hotel. Some pretty influential people passed through that hotel over the years. Makes me think some gangster had these stashed away, just in case. Or maybe the owner of the hotel? In any case, I wish they could talk. Stock has been replaced and it looks like the barrel was probably replaced as well. However it is a Colt barrel and of an early vintage. Fins are very thin. Internals are correct. Overall the finish is still good shape except for where it was mounted in a rack and / or carried in a hard case. Thought you guys might like to take a peak. Pics attached.


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Edited by firearm
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Nick, that's a good looking gun. Thanks for posting. Just curious, what makes you think the barrel and buttstock are not original?

 

Bob D

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For one thing, it has a sling swivel of the kind not available to Auto-Ordnance at the time it was sold. I assume it also lacks an anchor stamp?

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Many Gansters hid out some of their guns, wonder if these were one of those caches. Another thought is the when they had to be registered 1934ish the lawful owner decided to hide his instead of registering it. I sure registering a gun that the TAX was as much as the guns back then made registering and potential confiscation a good reason to stash it!

 

Look the stock over, see if there is an anchor. Also pull the buttstock and slide off and post those photos. If they (most likely) are WWII stocks then it gives you a "stashed no earlier than" date time stamp. However, there is still the possibility that the stock got swapped after the Sheriff's dept had it, or added it, if one of those guns lacked a stock.

 

Cheers

Sandman1957

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Nick,

 

Nice looking 21A. What makes you believe the barrel has been replaced? Looks original from the pictures, the witness marks line up and it certainly is an original Colt barrel. I agree that the buttstock appears to be a replacement.

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Nick,

I am with gijive regarding the barrel. What makes you think it is a replacement Colt's barrel? I am curious how you can tell. The pictures are low-resolution so I really can't judge the overall gun regarding even or uneven wear and tear. Of course, with one part not original, everything is always suspect. Please share your thoughts with us.

 

And thank you for sharing NO 1908 with us!

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The barrel alignment marks are just a hair off. Enough to make me somewhat suspect and to do a double take. I will get out my camera and see if I can get a more detailed jpeg later today. The butt stock was probably replaced or mixed up with another by the Sheriff's Department is my guess. The family (estate) did not even know what kind of weapon they had until after they talked with me years ago. They therefore would have had no reason to have replaced it or interchanged it with another. On the small end of the butt stock, there is a mark where the witness mark should be but I don't think it is what should be there. Also the wood at the rear of the stock overlaps the butt plate a little. The swivel inlet is a little rough and looks like it was almost cut by hand, but I can't tell for sure. I will take off the slide and butt plate later today and shoot up more jpegs for you guys. All questions to be answered.

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Thanks for the update. I thought your reasoning may have something to do with the alignment of the index lines but the picture was not clear enough for me to comment. I have seen Colt's with the index lines not perfectly matched or centered but the deviation is usually not more than part of the thickness of the receiver index line. In other words, the line on the barrel collar lines up at the top or bottom of the line of the receiver - if that makes sense. All that said, normally the index line alignment for the Colt's are usually perfect, but.... I saw this very slight variation on one of the Model of 1927's of the St. Louis PD Colt's. But there was no doubt the barrel on this Colt's with the Type 1 compensator was original.

 

I look forward to the additional pictures. Z3BigDaddy's description is perfect!

 

Let's get some comments on this

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Got a few minutes to shoot more jpegs. The light in this room is not very good and the weather outside is very overcast. Add that to my lack of pictures taking skills and this is what you get. Here is a shot of the barrel where it threads into the receiver. It is just a hair off alignment. In fact the jpeg makes it look more so than it actually is. In any case, I am just not sure. Your 2 cents? Pics on the butt stock will follow.

1908 alignment mark.JPG

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Many Gansters hid out some of their guns, wonder if these were one of those caches. Another thought is the when they had to be registered 1934ish the lawful owner decided to hide his instead of registering it. I sure registering a gun that the TAX was as much as the guns back then made registering and potential confiscation a good reason to stash it!

 

Look the stock over, see if there is an anchor. Also pull the buttstock and slide off and post those photos. If they (most likely) are WWII stocks then it gives you a "stashed no earlier than" date time stamp. However, there is still the possibility that the stock got swapped after the Sheriff's dept had it, or added it, if one of those guns lacked a stock.

 

Cheers

Sandman1957

I thought the tax was only on transfers, & Making.

 

if you just registered, no charge...

Am I wrong?

Edited by GUNGUY45
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I'm new to this game, but the finish/wear on the barrel sure looks like it matches the rest of the gun. Unless they replaced the original with a used barrel, I would say there is a good chance it is original...

 

In any case, it's an amazing piece!

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Here are some shots of the butt stock and the metal components. The only marking on the wood was under the butt plate. There is a "W" stamped into the surface at about 11:00 o'clock above the oiler hole. The rear swivel has a small "Y" stamped on the underside. The butt plate has no markings on it all and has somewhat of a matt type finish to it. The slide latch is numbered 5333 on the underside. There is also a small "P" stamped into the side of the latch lever. Wow! I was amazed as to how much rust is on the underside of this latch assembly. The jpegs make it look a lot worse than it really is, but there is more than should be there.

1908 wood1.JPG

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1908metal1.JPG

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1908metal3.JPG

1908metal4.JPG

1908metal5.JPG

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Nick,

I agree with your concerns on the index marks. That is too much of a misalignment. I don't think NO 1908 would have passed Major Barrett's inspection in 1921.

 

It is so hard to review and judge finish wear with only pictures. Does the outside finish wear of the barrel seem in-line with the finish wear on the rest of the Thompson, especially the muzzle end?

 

Whether the original barrel or not, that much of a misalignment would definitely have an impact on value - in my opinion. But I like the gun and its history!

 

Are all the internals correct?

 

The butt stock is definitely not original to this Colt's.

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The barrel seems to have a little more wear on it than the weapon. However, I have seen enough barrels to know it is an original 21 barrel. Maybe replaced many years ago. Who knows, maybe some young Deputy at the Sheriff's Department decided to take it on his own to disassemble both weapons and mixed up the barrels. We may never know.

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Whoops. I see you initially posted the internals are correct.

 

It certainly looks like a Colt barrel. And you own more Colt's barrels than me :)

 

I don't think this slight misalignment would be difficult to correct by someone like PK, but the front sight would probably have to be adjusted and re-pined.

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Al,

The sling swivel looks like a 1903 Springfield part.

If it is, it would have been available in 1903.

What does it look like to you???

Jim C

 

firearm,

Very interesting an very nice Colt.

Jim C

Neither Colt nor Auto-Ordnance had M1903 sling swivels available to them in the inter-war years. They only used M1917 sling swivels, which they procured from R.F. Sedgely, Inc on four separate occasions, as detailed here: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21833&hl=

 

The sling swivel itself is a WWII-era Thompson swivel made by Yale & Towne of Stamford, CT (indicated by the capital Y) for the Maguire-owned Auto-Ordnance.

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Arthur,

I don't know if we solved anything in that old thread but I certainly enjoyed the discussion.

 

Its been my experience that the index lines on the Colt Thompson align perfectly the great majority of the time. The few I have seen where the alignment was not perfect and there was no question about the barrel being original were just a scoach off. I believe collectors have come to expect a perfect alignment and anything less does impact value. But we have an owner of multiple Colt's that can provide a lot of information on this subject, to wit:

 

Nick, of all your Colt's (and I believe you have quite a few), how many do you have where the index lines are not in perfect alignment?

 

All good stuff!!!

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Here are some shots of the butt stock and the metal components. The only marking on the wood was under the butt plate. There is a "W" stamped into the surface at about 11:00 o'clock above the oiler hole. The rear swivel has a small "Y" stamped on the underside. The butt plate has no markings on it all and has somewhat of a matt type finish to it. The slide latch is numbered 5333 on the underside. There is also a small "P" stamped into the side of the latch lever. Wow! I was amazed as to how much rust is on the underside of this latch assembly. The jpegs make it look a lot worse than it really is, but there is more than should be there.

HI Nick,

 

Thanks for the additional photos. I agree with you that the angle of the photo, the lens on the camera, etc. can sometimes cause the alignment mark to look more off than it is. If it only a hair off and the front sight is in vertical alignment, I would say the barrel hasn't been messed with or replaced. There doesn't seem to be any flattening of the sight pin which is usually a sure sign that the pin has been removed at some point.

 

The butt stock is a typical WWII replacement stock with the W mark and no assembly number stamped into the wood. It is hard to tell because of the rust on the butt plate but it looks like the plate has a number stamped on it, I can make out a 9 and possibly another character. The number on the butt plate apparently does not match the number stamped on the slide attachment # 5333. This would indicate a rebuilt WWII butt stock. You can probably take some 000 steel wool and oil and remove some of the oxidation and corrosion on the butt plate to read the number stamped on it. If the font size is larger than the number on the slide attachment and the Remington "R" is stamped on the side of the trap door mechanism, it is likely a Colt butt plate, maybe the original?

 

Butt Plate-1.jpg

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