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Bump Stock Ban Allegedly Close


The Lone Ranger
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/politics/final-bump-stock-ban/index.html

 

Thanks Wayne & Chris (and subsequently Donald Trump, Jeff Sessions, Paul Ryan, et al). For those inclined to cheer because you personally dislike this accessory, my suggestion is to open your eyes and think principles vs. seeing your neighbor get kicked and laughing because it's not you. If this new NRA endorsed power granted to bureaucracies is allowed to remain intact, future bans can be implemented in similar fashion - without a vote in congress and your toys can be taken ex-post facto with no compensation or due process. All of it outside the constitution but that has become the norm over the last 100 years in so many ways. I have heard that GOA plans to attempt an overturn via the courts, but I don't know if that is true or what the odds might be as judges can be very lenient on letting .gov grow. On an interesting side note, a regulation change normally takes approximately seven years (example would be 41P/F CLEO signature) which started in 2009 and was finalized in 2016 - this one is under a year and ironically ATF resisted this saying they had no authority to ban anything or change definitions written in statutes until they got the "or else" from DJT/JBS.

 

I wrote to NRA in February asking their plans to prevent future abuses, compensation for people who obtained and possessed lawfully who will have their property seized, or legal defense for any that get prosecuted but no one has had time to reply yet.

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I thought I read about the compensation part differently.

 

Anticipated Costs and Benefits:

The rule will be "economically significant," that is, the rule will have an annual effect on the economy of $100 million, or adversely affect in a material way the economy, a sector of the economy, the environment, public health or safety or State, local or tribal governments or communities. ATF estimates the total cost of this rule at $320.9 million over 10 years. The total 7% discount cost is estimated at $234.1 million, and the discounted costs would be $39.6 million and $39.2 million annualized at 3% and 7% respectively. The estimate includes costs to the public for loss of property ($102,470,977); costs of forgone future production and sales ($213,031,753); and costs for disposal ($5,448,330). Unquantified costs include lost employment, notification to bump-stock-type device owners of the need to destroy the bump-stock-type devices, and loss of future usage by the owners of bump-stock-type devices. ATF did not calculate any cost savings for this final rule. It is anticipated that the rule will cost $129,222,483 million in the first year (the year with the highest costs). This cost includes the first-year cost to destroy or modify all existing bump-stock-type devices, including unsellable inventory and opportunity cost of time.

 

https://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201810&RIN=1140-AA52

 

This is not final yet. I agree that the ban should not happen even if I do not own/need/use one. Not completely related, but I was surprised by the proposed amount it would take to make this go away. There is no way the government could afford to do this with semi automatics like AR15 that many anti gun supporters want.

 

The NRA has time and time again shown that they do not care or support the 2A only money, nor do their spokesmen. Colion Noir for example up until recently has done a good job of side stepping anything NFA related until his interview on the Ruben Report. He was not able to side step it this time.

Edited by Speeddemon02
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It seems that the strongest ground for challenging this is that it's a 5th Amendment "taking" and thus requires compensation. If the courts agree with that interpretation, it gets dumped back into the hands of Congress, which can either do nothing, provide compensation, or provide for an amnesty so that existing bump stocks could be registered as machine guns. That last option would necessarily require that the Hughes Amendment moratorium be at least partially lifted, since all bump stocks are post-1986. If everything breaks exactly right, this all could be a net positive for us.

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Speeddemon - any cost associated with regulation changes have to be estimated (regardless of how impossible it is to be accurate). It's not a statement of intent to compensate, just how many millions the public may be paying for whatever burden is imposed. Maybe in its final form there will be protection for those possessing or compensation for taken property, but it was not previously included.

 

When knucklehead used them last year tin LV I thought maybe NRA would at least try some give and take; try to get rid of or at least define "sporting purpose", repeal 922r, silencers off NFA, SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive and protect those who already bought them but what a pre-emptive fold. I have not seen a move with such long term potential to repeatedly bludgeon gun owners (I'm 50, a pup to some of you guys but still - it's harsh when even Di Fi said it should be done by congress to be legit, another twist in the chain of events where a lifetime anti-gun legislator is more by the book than the NRA https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=5131CB84-7855-4622-843D-97B270067E13 ).

 

Anyway.... once the crazy train starts rolling it rarely stops. Trump has been promising this for months. If it actually happens, here's hoping for a solid plaintiff and competent counsel as we watch one segment of the gun lobby suing an anti-gun unconstitutional initiative proposed by another segment. Never a dull moment.

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It will be something to watch for sure. I sort of expected a blip in sales to come from guys in states that banned them and crankfires, but I've not seen much activity? So far I'm assuming guys are keeping them for now (scofflaws that they are)? I may be naive, but I don't see a direct path for banning them without grandfathering what's out there? Opening the registry for them would be tough IMO since that is a door that would really have to be one of the amnesty's? If so, I don't think they could place limits on what gets registered? If they do an all out ban, I may have to do a superglue gender reassignment procedure and render the big stud on the bottom inoperable thus rendering it's forward thrusts halted. I might have to eventually write a letter to see if that's legal.......um, er, even moral?

 

The "NRA" LOL. They ban most of my guns at their range.......what pro 2A organization does that?

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still dont get why they dont just consider them a destructive device and open the registry to them...clinton did it with some shot guns....these bump stocks live in the grey area..i think most would agree and the destructive device category would make it go away nicely with most happy.

 

i also agree that if we give them bump stocks we should get suppressors out of the nfa in return....as usual we just lose

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I have a fairly wide collection of various bumpstocks, bump grips, trigger cranks, echo triggers, hellfires, etc.

 

As far as I'm concerned, these were all on borrowed time. If they don't get banned while Republicans own the Senate and The Oval office, they'll get banned when the Democrats gain control in the future. I would love to be able to get some sort of stamp for all these. DD, AOW, or even machine gun. You better believe that if they do get flagged, I will proceed to run them off 24/7 on my 3D printer and get stamps for all of them.

 

My big question is about serializing them. Very few of the bumpstocks contained exposed metal to engrave. Most of them were just plastic. All of the bump grips are plastic or wood. Echo triggers were metal, but like 50 different parts. Hellfire were almost too small to engrave. And trigger cranks were had similar situations - plastic construction and many parts.

 

So, which serial number do you use? Do you make one up? Which part of the multi-part items do you engrave? What about the ones that are just soft plastic?

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The "NRA" LOL. They ban most of my guns at their range.......what pro 2A organization does that?

 

 

While the NRA may welcome NFA displays at their conventions, they would just as well stick a knife in your back as look at you when it gets down to the subject of supporting NFA firearms ownership.

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The "NRA" LOL. They ban most of my guns at their range.......what pro 2A organization does that?

 

 

While the NRA may welcome NFA displays at their conventions, they would just as well stick a knife in your back as look at you when it gets down to the subject of supporting NFA firearms ownership.

because they would lose all public support if they advertised them selves to be pro-machine gun....even though most here would agree that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of us to own them. 95%+ of the public would not.....its just luck that they still exist in private hands and only until one of these mass shootings happens with a registered FA...then were done

 

NFA isnt a winner for them.....suppressors--yes...but again--one is used in a mass shooting-good bye

 

ive dealt with probably 100 NFA people...buying/selling.....ive ran into a few that are on mental medications and not even here on earth anymore...doing business, buying from them was extremely difficult....i can think of 2 that should not even own a gun, yet i assume they owned full auto because they were selling parts and acted/pretended like they owned them. these 2 were so far gone mentally i wouldnt trust them with a butter knife...i think its inevitable something will eventually happen with a nut with access to one.

 

the las vegas shooter was a millionaire...he could have had a GE mini gun if he wanted.

Edited by huggytree
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The "NRA" LOL. They ban most of my guns at their range.......what pro 2A organization does that?

 

 

While the NRA may welcome NFA displays at their conventions, they would just as well stick a knife in your back as look at you when it gets down to the subject of supporting NFA firearms ownership.

because they would lose all public support if they advertised them selves to be pro-machine gun....even though most here would agree that the 2nd amendment protects the rights of us to own them. 95%+ of the public would not.....its just luck that they still exist in private hands and only until one of these mass shootings happens with a registered FA...then were done

 

NFA isnt a winner for them.....suppressors--yes...but again--one is used in a mass shooting-good bye

 

ive dealt with probably 100 NFA people...buying/selling.....ive ran into a few that are on mental medications and not even here on earth anymore...doing business, buying from them was extremely difficult....i can think of 2 that should not even own a gun, yet i assume they owned full auto because they were selling parts and acted/pretended like they owned them. these 2 were so far gone mentally i wouldnt trust them with a butter knife...i think its inevitable something will eventually happen with a nut with access to one.

 

the las vegas shooter was a millionaire...he could have had a GE mini gun if he wanted.

 

 

Don't ever forget it was the NRA that stabbed NFA owners in the back in 1986. The only reason they jumped up in support of concealed carry and suppressors was because the Fudd guns were not bringing in the donations they used to. Anymore the NRA is just a cash cow for Uncle Wayne and his pals.

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I take the minority view here. All these devices like bump-fire stocks, "pistols" with "arm braces" that are really SBRs, and "firearms" that are really SBSs that play a bit too cleverly with the limits of the NFA are eventually going to push Congress to re-legislate that Act to fix the definitions. When that happens it will be a disaster for us because they will not stop atmerely plugging the loopholes. As has been pointed out, we can count on exactly zero support from the NRA or anyone else for that matter.

 

Bump stocks are obviously garbage. I see no reason to defend them when doing so ultimately jeopardizes us.

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I take the minority view here. All these devices like bump-fire stocks, "pistols" with "arm braces" that are really SBRs, and "firearms" that are really SBSs that play a bit too cleverly with the limits of the NFA are eventually going to push Congress to re-legislate that Act to fix the definitions. When that happens it will be a disaster for us because they will not stop atmerely plugging the loopholes. As has been pointed out, we can count on exactly zero support from the NRA or anyone else for that matter.

 

Bump stocks are obviously garbage. I see no reason to defend them when doing so ultimately jeopardizes us.

 

You and I are firmly in agreement.

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I take the minority view here. All these devices like bump-fire stocks, "pistols" with "arm braces" that are really SBRs, and "firearms" that are really SBSs that play a bit too cleverly with the limits of the NFA are eventually going to push Congress to re-legislate that Act to fix the definitions. When that happens it will be a disaster for us because they will not stop atmerely plugging the loopholes. As has been pointed out, we can count on exactly zero support from the NRA or anyone else for that matter.

 

Bump stocks are obviously garbage. I see no reason to defend them when doing so ultimately jeopardizes us.

I disagree with "fix" the definitions. All our gun laws are arbitrary and written by people who don't understand basic firearms principals. All the things which they are wanting to ban is because they're scary. They saw some 80s action movie and thats all they know about guns.

 

Flash hider

Pistol grip

Barrel shroud

Shoulder thing that goes up

30 round banana clip

 

I have no doubt these products which walk the line (bumpstock, mossberg shockwave, pistol brace, franklin reformation) will be used as a soapbox for politicians to have something new to blame and ban. But I very much disagree that they will "fix" anything. Just the fact that we're having this discussion is proof. There has been exactly 1 crime committed with a bumpstock. And here we are talking about yanking away the rights of 300M people and the billions in future generations. There is no logic or reason. They only want to take, take, take. Move the goal post when it suits them, and then take some more.

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every time you give them 1 inch its 1 less inch you have. you never gain an inch forward, only backwards

 

you are now letting the government control the trigger of a gun. what if they decide it should be 20lbs for safety?

 

the anti gun people will always have an evil item to ban. your hunting rifle will be a sniper rifle, the AR15 is a high powered assault weapon....if it wasnt the bump stock it would be something else....its just another inch you are willing to give. its not about the bump stock

 

at a minimum---if we give the bump stock we should get something in return...take suppressors off the NFA....let me buy one at walmart off the shelf next to the hoppes and rem oil

 

someone did a work around on the bump stock and handicap arm braces...we all know that...but thats part of writing endless laws, people work around them. i suspect 25% of less bump stocks will be turned in...i suspect no one will ever go to jail for owning one...another law that no police man has the time or knowledge to enforce.

Edited by huggytree
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Just to be clear my point was not to defend bump stocks (don't own one, no plans or desire to) - merely to point out the mechanism being used to ban them can be used to alter other statutes as well. For example changing the effective date of 922o - that would be interesting - or further altering the definition of MG to include any firearm with a magazine that reloads without manual operation of the bolt or slide for each shot fired. And if ATF can do it so can the other 429 agencies, further intruding into every facet of your life (for your own good).

 

For those who think bump stocks are bad for whatever reason, great - lobby congress; lobby NRA, GOA, or whoever to lobby congress but liking this is asking for your toys to get taken next and just like 1986, no one is going to help any of us. We don't need machineguns.

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I don't give a tinker's damn about a bump stock, and after the Las Vegas atrocity I think they should be heavily regulated. However, there's a proper way and one that is not proper in the context of American liberty. I'm concerned about the blatant subversion of the proper legislative or regulatory procedures.

 

This "modern" notion that almost anything can be dictated from the White House without legislative action is the very definition of the tyranny our Founding Fathers intended to prevent. Now we are seeing it happen in plain sight while we sit back and drink beer in front of the NFL. When asked our thoughts we just off-gas with a loud belch.

 

Action on the bump stock is not the first we've seen. Executive orders have become common and accepted practice well outside the realm of their original use. Wake up America!

 

Curl

Edited by CptCurl
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One concern I have if they do get banned. Every collapsing type stock will be labeled a "bump stock" by those who haven't got a clue (the general public, news media, 90% of law enforcement). It will be up to us firearm owners to prove that it's not a banned item, probably as a defendant in court!

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