New Theory on Thompsons From Russia

[bustagutt]

Spare parts shipped to allied forces: Were these whole guns stripped prior to shipping or were these parts machined as orphans ie UK Gov makes a request for lets say 1000 receivers US Gov says sure okay, they in turn request extra 1000 receivers be machined at the factory. Do we now have 1000 receivers with no matching frames, likewise with extra stuff like frames, barrels, walnut, butt plates, bolts, mags etc etc?? Or were whole guns shipped but marked strickly as spares - would be logistically simpler - then once landed torn down and redistributed by allied armories? Either way as I said before we're tripping over the stuff here in euroland especially 21-28 butts, sometimes $10 a pop.

[ron_brock]

If you are tripping over 21 buttstocks send me a PM. You can buy them for $10 and I'll give you $20.

 

Ron

[DZelenka]

@DZelenka: The gun was first deactivated in Ukraine - by deactivating bolt and barrel. It was then inscribed in cyrillic on the receiver to mark it as "deactivated". Its receiver was still intact as in Ukraine deactivated guns can apparently have intact receivers. When it was imported into the US, the receiver was cut up - but the inscription has nothing to do with the receiver being cut.

That was my prior understanding about the various demil requirements. I just didn't know where the gun originated.

 

Dan

[gijive]

I know a dealer here in Luxembourg that had a few hundreds of this Thompsons and they came from the Ukraine for sure.

There were even Thompsons with british proof marks, Savage ones in the 150.000 serial number range, originally marked 1928 and then restamped Model US 1928 A1, so they might have even been sent from the UK (and refurbished in the UK) ?

 

They crates they are shipped have russian markings and a particular greenish colour, i wonder if these are the original shipping crates or if they have been repainted ?

 

Lots of M1 and M1A1 coming from the Ukraine have matching upper and lower receivers, but i think the lowers have been numbered later as they have not the same lettering, and i have seen a matching numbers M1A1 with an upper Savage receiver and a lower Auto ordnance grip. The few original M1A1 i have seen from the battle of the bulge (not many are around, i must admit) NEVER had the lower numbered to the upper receiver.

 

I have seen barrels replaced on the 1928A1's, non aligned with the index markings, but only once drilled for the compensator pin, so they put new barrels on a few of them

 

And then there are a lot of Thompsons coming from former Yougoslavia, but i have only seen M1 and M1A1's and they generally have seen some heavy use. These are distributed by a dealer in Austria. I saw them there by the hundreds also., but not in shipping crates as from the Ukraine

Annihilator,

 

Good post! I suspected for a while that some of these guns may have gone through the British, just based on the way some were refurbished, e.g., the black paint on some of the early kits that were imported, etc. Definitely some barrels replaced on these early kits also. Excellent information.

[bug]

Talk about tripping over buttstocks. About 15 years ago at the Valley Forge, PA gun show a fellow had unissued buttstock wood. Cases and cases and cases. He came across them down South somewhere where they were literally being used for firewood. He bought all he could crate away and only slightly dented the supply. No idea what happened to the rest. Burned I guess. They were beautifully grained walnut and priced $4 with crossbolt and $6 without. He was surprised they were selling so well at those prices. The ones I got were W marked for Wild Fowler Decoy. I'm sorry I only bought 3 non but I figured I could get more if I needed 'em. Right. He also had several boxes of the kits used to cross bolt existing stocks. Never saw him again... Bob D

Edited August 29, 2015 by bug

[Gio]

bug,

 

I ran into the same story at a gun show in Nashville area about the same time. This guy had about 200 al had the cross bolt. I bought two of them for $6 to $8. I wish I had bought more.

 

Frank

[dalbert]

Probably 12 years ago there was someone on eBay who had pallets of TSMG buttstocks on auction...I don't remember what style. I believe they were in the Memphis area at the time. Many hundreds of them...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Freddy]

I just updated my first post, putting in more details about my theory and making it up-to-date:

@Annihilator: I noticed as well on many deactivated Eastern European Thompsons that the drawlines on the barrel and receiver don't match. But in my opinion the barrels were like this from the factory: There are multiple threads on this board that the drawlines often didn't really line up on WW2 produced M1928a1 Thompsons. Also, I observed on deactivated guns that the "P" is always on top of the barrel where it should be. Also, they are drilled only one time for the compensator as you say.

Therefore, I am quite certain that during rebuilding, they were not re-barreled. In my opinion they were disassembled in their components except for barrel, sight etc. which would be difficult to disassemble.

Again, this is comparable to the Russian rebuilt K98s: Action and barrel often match, but no other parts, proving that receiver and barrel often stayed together. The Russians capturing thos K98s disasssembled them all and re-built them from piles of parts. I am certain that not all K98s actually needed rebuilding. It was probably simply ordered to disassemble and re-assemble ALL K98s. Similar with the Thompsons, I am quite certain. In the case of the Thompson, some workers tried to match back receiver and frame, some didn't and simply put together random receivers and frames, re-stamping the number on the frame to match the one on the receiver.

Dating the rebuilding: The rebuilding of the Thompsons certainly took place a while after they were delivered. Explained by the rusty spots that were cleaned and re-painted black. I assume they were stored for a while in sometimes not perfect conditions. I saw a deactivated otherwise pristine condition Savage-made 1928a1 that had the compensator and barrel pitted underneath the black paint, proving that the rust was probably from bad storage - there was no wear at all on receiver or frame except for the rust pitting in front that had been painted over black.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Freddy

[bustagutt]

Spare parts shipped to allied forces: Were these whole guns stripped prior to shipping or were these parts machined as orphans ie UK Gov makes a request for lets say 1000 receivers US Gov says sure okay, they in turn request extra 1000 receivers be machined at the factory. Do we now have 1000 receivers with no matching frames, likewise with extra stuff like frames, barrels, walnut, butt plates, bolts, mags etc etc?? Or were whole guns shipped but marked strickly as spares - would be logistically simpler - then once landed torn down and redistributed by allied armories? Either way as I said before we're tripping over the stuff here in euroland especially 21-28 butts, sometimes $10 a pop.

Forget about the walnut already! Throw some weight at my query about the spares.

[anjong-ni]

Of course, there are numerous people still living that could tell you where they came from,

because THEY bought them, cut them up, and brought them in.

Doug Richardson, Brian Poling, Don Bell are names that come to my feeble mind.

 

Can you imagine the spy-thrilling flashlights in dank warehouses? Musty boxes of rusting WW2 firearms?

 

Don't bother. I asked. They're not talking....Phil

[Freddy]

Thanks for the great discussion! I just thoroughly updated my initial post in this thread (on page 1, first post) to explain my theory in way more detail and to be more precise. My theory is actually that the Thompsons were rebuilt similar to the Russian rebuilt K98k rifles that are very common... More in the initial post.

Anihilator wrote that many M1A1 frames that wouldn't be numbered are numbered and matching on these Thompsons from Eastern Europe. That fits my theory that at one point all the Thompsons were rebuilt and then ordered to be numbers matching again afterwards - those without number on the frame would have gotten stamped at that time....

What do you all think?

Edited August 30, 2015 by Freddy

[bustagutt]

 

Thanks for the great discussion! I just thoroughly updated my initial post in this thread (on page 1, first post) to explain my theory in way more detail and to be more precise. My theory is actually that the Thompsons were rebuilt similar to the Russian rebuilt K98k rifles that are very common... More in the initial post.

 

Anihilator wrote that many M1A1 frames that wouldn't be numbered are numbered and matching on these Thompsons from Eastern Europe. That fits my theory that at one point all the Thompsons were rebuilt and then ordered to be numbers matching again afterwards - those without number on the frame would have gotten stamped at that time....

 

What do you all think?

“The truth is rarely pure and never simple.”

[buzz]

The truth is often very simple in my experience

Edited August 30, 2015 by buzz

[gijive]

Thanks for the great discussion! I just thoroughly updated my initial post in this thread (on page 1, first post) to explain my theory in way more detail and to be more precise. My theory is actually that the Thompsons were rebuilt similar to the Russian rebuilt K98k rifles that are very common... More in the initial post.

 

Anihilator wrote that many M1A1 frames that wouldn't be numbered are numbered and matching on these Thompsons from Eastern Europe. That fits my theory that at one point all the Thompsons were rebuilt and then ordered to be numbers matching again afterwards - those without number on the frame would have gotten stamped at that time....

 

What do you all think?

Freddy,

 

I think you should invest in a copy of Frank Iannamico's excellent book American Thunder II when it is released and thoroughly read it. Frank has done a lot of research on the Thompson from documented military and government records, His conclusions are not just arrived at by observing the current deactivated Thompsons in Europe. For example, he discusses how the M1 series Thompsons originally had the serial number roll-stamped on the grip frame trigger guard and it was later determined to drop this practice during production. So as far as your theory goes, how can you tell if an M1 Thompson with a matching numbered grip frame was originally manufactured this way or was re-numbered in Europe?

 

As far as barrels go, most WWII original Thomspons seem to have the draw lines match up on the receiver and barrel. If a barrel doesn't line up and the compensator pin is only drilled once, that doesn't mean the barrel hasn't been replaced. The barrel was put on first, then the compensator and barrel were drilled for the pin.

 

Most people on the board are not disagreeing that the guns have seen some rebuilding and refurbishing. Where and when this all occurred has yet to be fully documented.

[Freddy]

@ gijive, thanks for the input. Indeed, I do have both ATII as well as TUTB, and read both thoroughly. I formed my theory after reading ATII and TUTB, and observing numerous deactivated Thompsons. Latest M1A1 frames were not serial numbered to the receiver according to those books, that's clear. User "Anihilator" describes an M1A1 Thompsons from Eastern Europe that had a matching number on the frame - but the frame was AO made, the receiver by Savage, proving that they have been switched out. Probably, an un-numbered M1A1 frame was installed during rebuilding, and then the number of the upper added to it. The numbers on the frame were in a different font than on the upper. From this observation I conclude that also originally un-numbered M1A1 frames were also re-numbered during rebuilding, as I have indeed yet seen a deactivated M1A1 Thompson from Eastern European sources without number on the frame. It supports the theory that after rebuilding all Thompsons were to have matching numbers.

Concerning the drawlines: Indeed, I read that they often didn't quite line up from the factory. I have observed numerous deactivated guns - regardless if the drawline lined up, the "P" on top was always in the center. There have also been some where the "P" was stamped in a way that it slightly "touched" the receiver and you could clearly see it continuing slightly on the receiver - proving it was stamped after the barrel was installed, and the barrel was original to the receiver. I am pretty certain the barrels have not been swapped on the ones I observed due to the "P" always being on top, etc. There have been threads about the drawlines not always lining up on 1928a1 Thompsons... etc...

A very interesting topic!

Edited August 30, 2015 by Freddy

[gijive]

Freddy,

 

Different manufacture grip frames and receivers with different font styles would certainly support your argument that the guns were rebuilt while they were overseas. For the purpose of your theory, I would also agree that it was likely that these guns didn't have the barrels removed and replaced for long-term storage. Are we certain that the P-Proof was stamped on the barrels after they were installed? I have a couple of New Old Stock (NOS) military barrels, wrapped for storage by the U.S. Military that don't appear to have ever been on a gun, not drilled for compensator, that have the P-Proof stamped on them. I haven't found any in my collection with the P with serifs. All the ones I have appear to be sans-serif. Some with top of the P facing towards the muzzle, some with the top of the P facing the receiver and one with the P stamped sideways on the barrel shoulder.

 

I am still not convinced they were all disassembled and reassembled in the Ukraine. I think many of the guns may have come from other sources, including the Ukraine.

[Freddy]

gijive, thanks for the input! Indeed, I have seen the "P" in sans-serif font on a deactivated 1928a1 made by Savage that clearly slightly touches the receiver... The top of the "P" facing the muzzle. I can post a photo in a few days when I visit the collector who owns it. It is interesting - Do the replacement barrels also feature the "punch" mark? (Dot that was punched inside the "P" and on the receiver)? Because all the deactivated Thompsons I observed from Eastern European Sources have these "punch" marks on receiver and barrel, too. (in the center of the receiver with Savage-made Thompons, on the top left with AO made Thompsons, as is expected). I think the barrels are originally installed and not replacements?

Concerning the sources: There may very well be different sources. But I refer to the guns that have been described to come from "Russia" or "Eastern Europe", and they have these characteristics in common:

-> Either matching numbers or forcematched frames. If frames are re-stamped, they always use the same font that is unlike the "original" font used for the serial number.
-> containing brand new and worn / pitted parts. Parts where the bluing is gone (either wear or scrubbed off from removing rust) are painted black.
-> stocks have not been "updated" to the crossbolt stocks on 1928a1 and early M1.

In my opinion, these two characteristics describe this kind of Thompson best?

It is of course impossible to say when and where they were exactly rebuilt - I have no idea where they were stored, except that many sellers in Europe and overseas say they are either "Russian" or "Eastern European". Still, looking at the samples, I think it's possible to say at least what happened to them after manufacture...

[gijive]

gijive, thanks for the input! Indeed, I have seen the "P" in sans-serif font on a deactivated 1928a1 made by Savage that clearly slightly touches the receiver... The top of the "P" facing the muzzle. I can post a photo in a few days when I visit the collector who owns it. It is interesting - Do the replacement barrels also feature the "punch" mark? (Dot that was punched inside the "P" and on the receiver)? Because all the deactivated Thompsons I observed from Eastern European Sources have these "punch" marks on receiver and barrel, too. (in the center of the receiver with Savage-made Thompons, on the top left with AO made Thompsons, as is expected). I think the barrels are originally installed and not replacements?

 

Concerning the sources: There may very well be different sources. But I refer to the guns that have been described to come from "Russia" or "Eastern Europe", and they have these characteristics in common:

 

-> Either matching numbers or forcematched frames. If frames are re-stamped, they always use the same font that is unlike the "original" font used for the serial number.

-> containing brand new and worn / pitted parts. Parts where the bluing is gone (either wear or scrubbed off from removing rust) are painted black.

-> stocks have not been "updated" to the crossbolt stocks on 1928a1 and early M1.

 

In my opinion, these two characteristics describe this kind of Thompson best?

 

It is of course impossible to say when and where they were exactly rebuilt - I have no idea where they were stored, except that many sellers in Europe and overseas say they are either "Russian" or "Eastern European". Still, looking at the samples, I think it's possible to say at least what happened to them after manufacture...

Freddy,

 

The replacement barrels do not have the punchmarks on them. My understanding is that the punch mark was placed on them after the guns were test fired at the factory. I have a couple of barrels and receiver noses from the parts kits that surfaced several years ago and the punch marks are right at the edge of the receiver where the P-Proof is on the barrel. It makes it appear that the P extends to the receiver. Closer examination shows that it is the punch mark that appears to make the leg of the P extend to the receiver. I would think that if you found a gun without the punch mark in the center of the P on the barrel, it could possibly be a replacement barrel.

[Freddy]

gijive,

good point. I remember having a discussion with my friend about this - the punch mark indeed touches the "P", but we were both quite certain that the P also extended to the receiver when looking closely... I will post a photo in the next days, that will be much clearer...

My friend actually also owns a deactivated British used Thompson (not from "Eastern European" stock, very well used etc.) that at one point went through some barrel-replacement where you can see a trace of the P on the receiver that don't line up with the barrel... Will also post photos of that. I am quite certain that the "P" was applied on the assembled unit receiver-barrel. And replacement-barrels were probably separately tested and marked with a P... So, if a barrel was installed in a gun, my guess is that it was then marked when already installed meaning that the stamp could also be imprinted on the receiver if not perfectly placed; if the barrel was produced as a spare part, it was marked by itself with the "P", meaning that all barrels were marked P... But I am no expert on this - my theory on the Eastern European Thompsons is much more backed by observations than my theory about replacement barrels as I never looked too much into that.

So far I have only seen Thompsons with punch marks on the barrel when looking at the deactivated Thompsons available in Germany - but of course that's always a small sample. I remember reading on this board that a source indicated more than 100000 .45 smgs were sent to the Soviet Union during WW2 via Lend-Lease... But so far, I have yet seen one of the "Russian" / "Eastern European" Thompsons without a punchmark on the barrel... So I saw no proof against the theory.

[rpbcps]

Other than the staged photo of Soviet sailors with 1928 TSMGs, there isn't much photographic evidence that the Soviets even sporadically used the TSMG on the Eastern front in 1941, 1942, 1943...

Why would the Soviets at the conclusion of WWII spend the time to strip down unissued weapons to the last component and then assemble these parts into a complete weapon at some later date? Do the parts take up less space than assembled TSMGs?

Stumbled upon this photo while doing a search for photos for 'Cuban Revolution Thompson'. Caption stated photo was taken in Stalingrad in January 1943?

 

This does not appear to be a staged photo though, no matter where it was taken.