Model Of 1928 Added To Curios And Relics List

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

Just got my TCA newsletter. In a Breaking News section it states:

 

On Jan 12, 2006, the BATFE responded to a TCA request to add the Model 1928 to the Curios and Relics list. To quote the BATFE response:

 

"...Therefore, the following sub-machine guns have been classifed as C&R items:

 

All fully transferable Thompson sub-machine guns registered on or before May 19, 1986. "

 

It says to see the TCA website for the full text of the letter but I don't see it posted.

 

Does that include replicas?

 

 

 

[Zamm]

Not to sound utterly dumb and uninformed ( which I am),

does this mean anything to us folks here in New York, like,

can we have a Thompson if it is listed as a C+R?

Okay, my loins are girded, let em fly http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

Z

[full auto 45]

Only if your state would allow you to own a C & R gun. But Miss Hitler and (up) Chuck wouldn't allow that in her adopted state.

[Zamm]

Thanks Mike,

Kinda what I figured, Those two are trying to ban rubber bands in this state! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif

Z

[bt3_guns]

If you were at the TCA meeting during Aug 05 Show and Shoot you probably remember Carol telling the membership about the request to add the West Hurleys to the C&R list. Although it seemed to take a while the BATFE response was very welcome. Here is some more detail from their response:

 

“Upon reviewing the information you provided and conducting our own research into this matter in the context of Federal statues and regulations, FTB has determined that any fully transferable Thompson sub-machinegun derives a substantial part of its monetary value due to its intimate association with the social and military history of the United States. Therefore the following sub-machine guns have been classified as C&R items:

 

All fully transferable Thompson sub-machine guns registered on or before May 19, 1986.

 

Based on this determination, licensed collectors may acquire, hold, or dispose of these machineguns as curios and relics subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3). However, they are still “machine guns” as defined in the NFA 5845(, and all NFA rules and regulations regarding their purchase and possession will still apply regardless of their status as C&R firearms.”

 

 

I spoke to Pat Wheeler; he just hasn’t gotten around to posting the scan of the letter on the TCA web site yet. The TCA has made copies of the letter and if you send a SSAE to the TCA at P. O. Box 1675 Ellicott City, MD 21041-1675 they will send a copy out to you.

 

 

I'm sure happy to see this approved; no more filing out the ATF 5320.20 on the wife's gun!

 

Bill Troy

[giantpanda4]

Bill,

 

That sounds great!

 

Just to clarify, are ALL westies now officially C&R guns, not just the commemmoratives?

[Mike Hammer]

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif This is really great news for WH owners and those people residing in C&R only states. Only down side is '28 Westies will now appreciate in value even more... down side that is if you wish to buy one.

 

Mike Hammer

[v188]

So....A really important question to me: I have a rewelded Thompson M1.

 

Does this mean, it will be C&R eligible? It registered pre 86 and is fully transferrable.

 

I sure hope so, I sent it to PK to "purdy it up" a little, and it will come back C&R?

 

I sure hope this is true.

 

Does anyone know if this is true, in my situation?

[docmolar]

I am new at this also, but the way I understand it is that if it is C&R eligiable you do not have to file travel papers to take it out of state ? Is that correct ???

[NotDeaf]

 

Okay …. I’m also confused …

 

Here’s a URL to the ATF Curio & Relics list http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/relics/curio.pdf

 

See page 49 for the National Firearm Act Weapon Classification as a Curios or Relics.

Scroll down to page 55 or Section IV it lists …. And it says …..

 

Thompson, Model 1927, semiautomatic carbine, caliber .45 ACP ( is this the current Kahr? )

 

Thompson, submachine guns including all models, prototypes, & variations actually mfd in or before 1945 ( would this include the 1928??? )

 

Any help would be great …. Some on this board knows ….

 

Thanks

Randy

aka NotDeaf

 

[giantpanda4]

Doc,

 

You have to have a C&R license. The gun is still a form 4 or whatever form you have it on.Then you can possess the C&R guns and take them interstate without filing the IRS form. I have only a C&R and it suits my needs perfectly.

 

V188,

 

As far as a rewelded gun.... God I hope it is registered as something! Rewat, I presume. Good question if a registered rewat can be considered a C&R.... was it rewatted prior to 86? You said yes. With paperwork to show that? If so, you have a good case, but the answer must come from the BATFE. Ask them with the details, they should give you a response!

 

My take - and only that - is this applies to West Hurley made guns only. I'd like to see the text of the letter.

 

Good luck!

[Zamm]

QUOTE

Thompson, Model 1927, semiautomatic carbine, caliber .45 ACP ( is this the current Kahr? )

 

NotDeaf,

This is probably referring to the limited run that Auto-Ord did of 1927 guns ( I believe around that time) in a Semi version. The idea was for Law inforcement people who did not want thier folks trying to control a full auto-gun. It never really caught on.

They were actually 21's with the "1921" and "submachine gun" milled out of the reciever's, being replaced with the stampings "1927" and "Semi-automatic Carbine". There were some drop in parts that nulled the full auto option. But, they still fired from open bolt, and a quick change of parts get's you back to full auto weapon. These are curios for sure, as not many exist in thier original form, being revamped as full-auto's later in thier life.

That provision does not refer to the West Hurley or Kahr Semi-Auto 1927s.

Best, Z

[ODS9091]

QUOTE

Thompson, submachine guns including all models, prototypes, & variations actually mfd in or before 1945 ( would this include the 1928??? )

 

That would be WWII production, but the West Hurley guns were produced in the 70's and 80's and therefor were not a C&R gun except for the M1 models and some commerative models.

 

[Tman]

Well hell, I was going to draft my letter to Firearms Tech this weekend on this same subject. Great news!!

 

On another note, I have a meeting with a rep from Firearms Tech Branch tomorrow. I will ask him for a clarification on this subject and report back here. If anyone here has any questions they want me to ask, get them to me by 0830 tomorrow and I will try to get you an answer and post them here.

[hughlong]

I have, among others, a Group Industries 1928 Thompson, made and registered prior to May 1986.

On the Form 4, it lists the manufacturer as Group Industries, Louisville, KY and the type of weapon as Machine Gun, and the model as M1.

 

Think this is covered by the change in C&R status or should I write BATFE specifically?

 

The Form 4 makes no reference to THOMPSON.

Edited January 26, 2006 by hughlong

[bt3_guns]

Giantpanda4 –

 

Yes all the West Hurleys are now C&R.

 

The request Carol made was as follows:

 

“I am writing to you to request that the Model 1928 Thompson Submachine Guns (all calibers including the .45 and .22) manufactured during the 1970s and 1980s by the Auto Ordnance Corporation of West Hurly, New York, be added to the Curio and Relics list.”

 

 

V188 –

 

It seems to me that if you gun is a Thompson SMG and would qualify.

 

 

Hughlong –

 

Does the gun have “Thompson” on it? If so it may qualify. I suspect that you’ll need to ask the BATFE FTB to get a firm ruling.

 

 

Bill Troy http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

[full auto 45]

Ok, here is one that will throw you for a loop. I saw, and held it in my hands, a transferable Philadelphia ordnance receiver M1 Thompson. One of about a dozen made. Will it be on the list?

[hughlong]

My Group Industries thompson 1928 is not marked thompson on the gun or on the form 4.

[Mike Hammer]

I would suspect that those guns would NOT be included as C&R's as the receiver was not made by Auto-Ordnance West Hurley. The catch phrase in the letter of request was "as manufactured by Auto-Ordnance Corp. of West Hurley. I would still go ahead and request a ruling however if I owned a Phil. Ord. receiver. I doubt they will go for it though, this would be like saying all tube receiver mp40's are now considered Curio & Relic. Hey, if enough time passes, won't all fully transferable pre '86 mg's be in the running for Curio & Relic status....A thought to consider! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

 

Mike Hammer

[full auto 45]

Phil, where did you see it?

[v188]

2nd and final (?) question:

 

I just checked my Form 4, since it's reweld M1, it has the "mfg", and not Savage. Since it doesn't say, AO; Colt or Savage........and........I'd guess no Fm 4 says Thompson, how do I go about letting ATF know this is in fact a Tommy?

 

Not for me, but if sometime i wanted to sell it. Well also I guess to go out of state without the 5502?

 

- Send a letter and/or call my examiner (NFA) and have a notation made it's a Thompson?

 

- Maybe it's best to get a personal letter from FTB pertaining to this SN? If so, anyone have a example I can plagarize?

 

Thanks in advance.

[First Sergeant]

Mike,

 

I too put fingerprints on the Philly M1 about 2 hrs after Phil had his hands on it. We were treated to the privilege at the OCGA meeting in Wilmington a couple weeks ago. Frank's pretty proud of it and rightfully so....very nice indeed.

 

Chuck

 

[amafrank]

I see my evil plan has worked.....I tried to find some info on these very boards about the philly ord transferables with no result. Once I had the gun I figured I needed to share the info so when the next guy asks there will be some answers. Thanks Mike, Phil and Chuck. You helped the plan get rolling.....

 

I don't think the form for it has Thompson listed anywhere and I don't have the gun sitting here to see if it says Thompson on it. When talking with the manufacturer he did say that the West Hurley boys threatened to sue him if he used the word thompson on the guns or the ads. It might be worth looking into with ATF to see if it would qualify for this piece of the C&R list or maybe just on its own. The maker said that he only finished 12 guns tops and that ATF disallowed all the receivers he had done that would not fire when they did the inspection. Another obvious case of selective enforcement. . .

Frank

 

 

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE (amafrank @ Jan 27 2006, 12:11 PM)

I don't think the form for it has Thompson listed anywhere and I don't have the gun sitting here to see if it says Thompson on it. When talking with the manufacturer he did say that the West Hurley boys threatened to sue him if he used the word thompson on the guns or the ads. Frank

Group Industries, or Philadelphia Ordnance, should have called Trast's bluff. Then Trast would have had to produce in court the actual document, the one William Helmer never saw, that stipulated Trast's sole ownership of the Thompson name, patents, logos, etc.

 

As far as ATF Forms 3/4, there are boxes for the name of the weapon's manufacturer, i.e. Colt, Savage, AO, WH, and there is a box for the type of firearm. In that box, ATF seems indifferent to either "Machine Gun," "Submachine Gun," or "Thompson SMG." ATF couldn't care less what name goes in the "type of firearm," or "Model," box. They are only concerned with the serial number.

 

I have seen "Thompson" typed in the manufacturer's box on ATF forms. Of course "Thompson" was not the manufacturer of any smg. So it seems ATF is, or was, indifferent as to what name was plugged into that box as well. If anything that would come under the heading "model." But in that box, I have seen "1928," "1921," "Navy 1928," "1921/28 Navy"

 

The absence of the name "Thompson" on ATF forms is common even for Colt, Savage, or AO TSMG's. ATF would not be able to use that name in their revised C&R status since they never required the "Thompson" name typed on their forms to begin with

[Tman]

QUOTE

T-man, Didn't you say you were going to discuss something with the Firearms Technology guys shortly?

 

We had a meeting this morning talking about MG conversions and discussed a pending case dealing with HK trigger packs. I asked about the adding of TSMGs to the C&R list and was told that the recommendation went forward to our legal staff but he wasn't aware that a ruling had been issued. He did not personally work on the letter but heard about it in the office so he couldn't add anything new on the subject.

 

My opinion is it will probably take a clarification of the ruling to include Group Ind. and Phila Ord guns.