Gangster Gun, Serial # Revealed !

[dalbert]

Colt Chopper,

 

You may have a trip to Manitowoc in your future, looking through old local newspaper microfilm...This could require a lot of beer. Make it enough of a party, and some of us might join you on the quest.

 

David

[giantpanda4]

Ditto. Just a boat ride across the lake from us!

[full auto 45]

The Day "Baby Face Nelson came to Brainerd

 

I say, we do a weekend trip to Brainerd. Talk to the guy at the old bank building and try to find a bullet in the wall. Do a little SVD Dr. Goddard's work and see if bullets match.

[arch stanton]

Well if you guys get this trip going you can stop by me on the way in Racine. We have a very nice range on the lake to do some shooting and some great pizza.

 

Jack being the previous owner did you happen to do a FOIA on the 28 I own?

 

Joe

Edited October 7, 2016 by arch stanton

[OCM]

Here's an outline/summary where we're ( I'm just helping ) at with the Nelson gun:

 

1) CC purchases the Thompson, no clue it was a Baby Face Nelson weapon- numbers removed, registered with the IRS.

2) He pulls the barrel at the Thompson meet, just for fun, to see the secret number. Number is revealed and looked up in Gordon's book

3) Fairly quick and easy research shows it to be a gun sold to Baby Face Nelson by HS Lebman. ( FBI files, etc.)

4) Gun is found to have belonged in 1971, to a large Machine Gun Dealer, mainly Thompsons, from the 50s & 60s. CC makes contact with him, who is way retired in Pharr, Texas now.

5) Research shows the gun was purchased/owned in 1968 ( amnesty ) by the Manitowoc, Wis. Police Department.

6) Currently two law enforcement guys are working on the MPD and the local Sheriff's office to seek history on it .

 

My side of things show that none of the outlaws at the Little Bohemia Lodge battle took Thompsons with them, except Dillinger , who took off with # 7387, the Crown Point escape Thompson. The two pictured, had the numbers raised by the acid method. It's written that there were 6 Thompsons recovered, however no evidence of that on two historical researches.

My thinking is it's one of the Thompsons from the Baby Face Nelson battle in Barrington, that went underground after Nelson was killed . Showed up at the 68 Amnesty, and went public.

 

OCM

Edited October 7, 2016 by OCM

[ghostsoldier]

My thinking is it's one of the Thompsons from the Baby Face Nelson battle in Barrington, that went underground after Nelson was killed . Showed up at the 68 Amnesty, and went public.

 

OCM

 

That would be awesome, if proven.

 

Rob

[OCM]

Yea, we know it belonged to Nelson, that's proven, but from 34-68 is the next step. Basically it's stayed within 90 miles of the Barrington battle so far, that we know. There are two separate verbal stories on it, that it was used in a bank robbery - That's encouraging. One states it was picked up by the Feds who sold it to the MPD in 1968. Another, from the old gun dealer, he bought it from the MPD in trade and never saw them, all went thru the Feds, but it was used in a bank robbery. Remember it's a IRS registered gun.

Helmer knew the gun dealer back when he was in undergraduate school, or knew of him, information he got from Lebman, when Bill was big time into Thompsons.

Gun has some interesting past, starting off with the Lebman/Nelson connection. If in fact it is a lost Barrington Thompson and went underground, it may be hard to dig up the history on it . Someone knows............

Gijive is waiting to hear back from the MPD, Sheriff Hudson is contacting the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept. So we got two top retired cops on it, going to surround the Manitowoc Police Department, historically that is.

 

OCM

[Tman]

Sorry, no hooks at the FOIA shop. They just process the request. It would be sent to the NFA Branch for research and we all know how backed up they are.

[bob241]

According to the internet, Manitowoc county sheriff,s office was issued a Auto-Ordance model 1921 Thompson Submachine Gun in 1931, They may confuse this thompson with the one you are trying to find the history on.

[OCM]

The Manitowoc Sheriff Dept had two Thompsons, # 5515 & # 5931. # 5931 was sold, about 1977. This info was from Colt Chopper, which was relayed to Sheriff Hudson, prior to calling.

The Manitowoc Police Department had CC's Thompson # 5487. That's the Nelson Thompson, that CC has now.

Have not heard anything back yet, or from Colt Chopper.

It is confusing, but I think we are OK, thanks.

[Colt Chopper]

Nothing new, hopefully the Deputy Chief will respond and have some helpful information.

[dalbert]

Sorry, no hooks at the FOIA shop. They just process the request. It would be sent to the NFA Branch for research and we all know how backed up they are.

 

Tman,

 

Thanks for responding. I figured that would be the case, but no harm in trying. It seems that the FOIA may not be as critical as we thought it was to begin with, based on the information that has quickly been gathered, but it would still be nice to have.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[gijive]

Yea, we know it belonged to Nelson, that's proven, but from 34-68 is the next step. Basically it's stayed within 90 miles of the Barrington battle so far, that we know. There are two separate verbal stories on it, that it was used in a bank robbery - That's encouraging. One states it was picked up by the Feds who sold it to the MPD in 1968. Another, from the old gun dealer, he bought it from the MPD in trade and never saw them, all went thru the Feds, but it was used in a bank robbery. Remember it's a IRS registered gun.

Helmer knew the gun dealer back when he was in undergraduate school, or knew of him, information he got from Lebman, when Bill was big time into Thompsons.

Gun has some interesting past, starting off with the Lebman/Nelson connection. If in fact it is a lost Barrington Thompson and went underground, it may be hard to dig up the history on it . Someone knows............

Gijive is waiting to hear back from the MPD, Sheriff Hudson is contacting the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept. So we got two top retired cops on it, going to surround the Manitowoc Police Department, historically that is.

 

OCM

Sandy,

 

Just to clarify, the gun was in possession of the Manitowoc PD and was registered during the1968 Amnesty on a form 4467, which was the form used during the amnesty period. The only reason the gun has an IRS number is because the serial number was defaced. If they had known the real number 5487, it could have ben registered under that number. The IRS assigned numbers to NFA guns when the correct number wasn't known. The gun was registered to the Manitowoc PD, not the IRS. The Manitowoc PD may have consulted with the Treasury Department about how to dispose of the gun in 1971 and they may have contacted or recommended the dealer that it was ultimately transferred to, Ivy Armament, but the gun was transferred from the Manitowoc PD to the dealer, not from the Treasury Department. The mystery is how the Manitowoc PD obtained the gun in the first place. Hopefully, there are microfilm records available at Manitowoc PD that may shed some light on the recovery of the gun and when it occurred. The fact that they registered it in 1968 doesn't mean that they acquired it then. They could have had the gun for years in their arsenal or as evidence. Although the NFA requires registration of certain firearms, law enforcement agencies are exempt from illegal possession of machine guns just by virtue of the fact that they are a law enforcement agency. It only became necessary to register the gun when they decided to sell it. If it wasn't registered, they couldn't have legally disposed of it, they could have kept it or destroyed it. Luckily for us Thompson enthusiasts, someone at the Manitowoc PD had the foresight to properly register the gun in 1968. When I hear from the Deputy Chief at the Manitowoc PD that I contacted I will post the findings.

[OCM]

Thanks Chuck- Good stuff as always-

 

Sheriff Hudson is in touch with the Sheriff Department there, they are calling back Monday. May hear from them Monday ?

 

I talked to Colt Chopper this morning, thought of that, maybe they've had the gun since whenever and registered ( or ? ) it in 68 to sell or possibly trade to Ivy Armament for upgrades. Lot of departments were upgrading then.

 

Your thought it could of been stored for evidence, is interesting, since there are the two tales of it connected with a bank robbery.

 

Ivy Armament has indicated to CC, that they never had dealings with the MPD directly, everything went thru the Treasury Dept.

Confusing to me - I'm no good at the procedures, glad you're here.

As you say, glad someone had the foresight to save the gun, it was already lost as a piece of history .

 

See what happens. There are 4 of us working on this, something will pop.

 

Mr. Chopper is working like a Madman on this- Fun project.

[OCM]

Forgot about Columbus Day, a lot of the Administration offices were shut down today. Sheriff Hudson called today to inform me of that, he had tried calling the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept.

So nothing to report on this end, for those watching. Back at it tomorrow-

Just an FYI.

 

OCM

[OCM]

Little update for those following Colt Chopper's thread here-

 

CC is at Knob Creek this weekend so tied up for a couple days.

 

Chuck has finally got some good contact with the Manitowoc PD, new information coming we hope. Sounds positive. Anxiously waiting

 

Sheriff Hudson contacted the Manitowoc Sheriff Dept, they pretty much knew nothing about it. Some verbal stories with key wording but nothing substantial.

 

Nothing new historically that I can come up with, just speculation at this point.

 

About it for now.

 

OCM

[Sandman1957]

I'm stating the obvious, but you need to find the retired Sheriff, Deputies who were there in 1968. They may have more knowledge on this gun. All the folks that are there now will not. Even if they have passed on, their families may have or remember some information.

 

Good Hunting.

[OCM]

Chuck is on top of, exactly that. He's the led man on this hunt. Focus is the Manitowoc PD now.

 

Waiting for information.

Edited October 19, 2016 by OCM

[OCM]

Briefly:

After discussing this with Bill Helmer, it appears that Colt Chopper's Baby Face Nelson Thompson, was most likely the one that Nelson himself used at the Barrington shoot-out. Some of this is discussed in The Complete Public Enemy Almanac and other documents.

This one, the Colt Monitor and one or two Winchester 1907s ( standard models) were still in the area in 1938, looking for an underground buyer.

Bill indicated that the FBI didn't pursue this led as Hoover was all involved in the Communists era and an up and coming Hitler in Europe.

Bill has the paperwork to back this up-

 

The Thompson came from the Lebman purchase, as noted in the FBI records, the Colt Monitor from Jack Perkins via New York and the Winchesters, unknown. No clue where Nelson stored his weapons, guessing St Paul, as he lost a couple Thompsons at the Little Bohemia Lodge battle.

 

I was under the impression there were 3-4 Thompsons with the Nelson group and one was captured and used as evidence in the Helen Gillis trial, both untrue.

 

Another little quirk, The Nelson Thompson ( unknown still it was a Nelson involved Thompson ) was sold to Ivy Armaments, William Easterly, in 1971, from supposedly, the Manitowoc Police Department. I had mentioned this to Helmer some time ago. Bill said he remembered the name of the dealer from his ( Bill's) association with H.S. Lebman, when he was in undergraduate school at the University of Texas. this is when he was writing The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar. Turns out, William Easterly is in the credits in the book. ( I haven't looked yet, but Bill says it's there.

 

About it-

 

OCM

[ghostsoldier]

Man...this is sounding better and better, about it possible being a Barrington gun.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/ghostsoldier/THOMPSON%20SUB%20MACHINEGUNS/IMAG1608.jpg

 

Rob

[OCM]

Thanks Rob-

Glad they did that, to often the legend of Baby Face Nelson, and others, overshadows the loss of these fine Law enforcement people .

 

Nothing new on the Nelson gun front, that I'm aware of. I think everyone involved in this hunt is waiting for information, from various sources.

 

OCM

[OCM]

Found an uncut copy I had, ( lost) of the 1934 Barrington battle, filmed at the site, recently after it happened. Great interviews with people at the scene, that witnessed the shoot-out. Also interviews with the Police Chief, that you can see in the stills, and an exact reenactment of the shoot-out. WITH SOUND !!!

Uncut it shows a couple of takes from the amateur filming .

One great find here, is the lady that saw the whole thing and said they transferred the guns ( and all ) from the one car to the other. The interviewer says, " Machine guns " and she yes, machine guns.

Shows the various cops with Nelson's body, lifting his fingers on the right hand as to show how finger prints were taken.

Great old school 1930s filming.

The re-enactment of the shooting, exactly as it happened , at the location, with the 30s cars, do a couple takes, but you can see how the thing went down.

Great cars !!! Wonderful history

Someone was standing there with one of those Newsreel cameras doing this & WITH sound.

 

Yes, called Colt Chopper already, copy is in the mail.

 

Another small piece to the Nelson Thompson find.

 

OCM

Edited November 4, 2016 by OCM

[ghostsoldier]

 

Found an uncut copy I had, ( lost) of the 1934 Barrington battle, filmed at the site, recently after it happened. Great interviews with people at the scene, that witnessed the shoot-out. Also interviews with the Police Chief, that you can see in the stills, and an exact reenactment of the shoot-out. WITH SOUND !!!

OCM

Is this something that's available on the internet, Sandy?

 

Rob

[OCM]

I don't think this one is, it's raw footage from the day. There is some stuff on YT, and I've seen parts of this, on various stuff, but not this one that I remember. Hard telling, as I've found it forgotten in my mess of stuff and had obviously seen it before.

This is more concentrated on the eye witnesses and the reenactment of the whole battle. Like the uncut version of the films they did.

I've got a massive box of VHS stuff, I think this is close to one of these, but the cars scenes I don't recall at all.

 

It's like you were there type thing. Wasn't there a TV program called " You Were There "

 

sorry drifting off subject as usual.

[OCM]

Another good point, go thru the box of VHS tapes, listed as Baby Face Nelson and send them to Colt Chopper.

The old Dealers in Death stuff, bunch others. Helmer sent me a bunch of these thru the years, some just snippets of stuff. That's what we did back in the day. A lot I copied/stole/borrowed from others. Lot from Mattix.

 

CJL wants some stuff too, I'm happy, wife is happy, all is good. ( when Momma's happy, everyone is happy)

 

 

 

OCM