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Destructive Device transfer issues


halftrack
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Need some guidance or help with this.

 

Bought a M203 out of TX. I live in LA. There are no qualified FFL type 9, 10, or 11 that can do the transfer in my area. The seller is insisting on one of those type license holders for the transfer. I thought the BATF would allow a local SOT to do the transfer of none are available in my state. Should I insist the seller use the SOT and see what happens or what are my options? Let the BATF refuse then Call the reviewer? Any help would be much appreciated.

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I know exactly what seller you are talking about. They are doing the same thing to me and I am having to call up every 09 and 10 in the state to find one that even works with civilians. I used to be a regular 07/03 FFL/SOT myself for 6 years and we transferred several DDs over those years with no trouble at all. It literally says it is allowed in the ATF's rules. We just had to submit a letter with the form 3 transfer to us about every other time because it would get denied to us. We would resubmit it with a letter and it would get approved. I don't agree with what they are wanting, but it is their business, and I will always respect what a business wants to do even if I don't agree with it. I wish you luck. Wish me luck too! Haha.

Edited by michaelkih
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  • 3 weeks later...
Update: Wrote a letter to accompany the transfer explaining there were no DD qualified dealers in my area other than DOD manufacturers. Transfer went through without a hitch. Took less than two weeks. Now the long wait with transferring it to me from my SOT dealer.
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  • 10 months later...

So why not take the gun apart and have the receiver shipped to your local FFL, transfer as any other gun once the Form 1 is approved, and have the barrel shipped to you. then submit a form 1 to ATF. 60 days or so..... and you then get the receiver and mate the two.

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this answer may be irrelevant by now but here it is:
This is interesting because the 203 is already a registered DD. Once the barrel is removed and the lower is no longer ATF/NFA controlled, and the lower is transferred as aTitle I firearm, does ATF allow the previous DD registration to be reactivated by installing the barrel again?

My view is that you have created a crime of tax evasion if you do this because a taxable transfer has been done without the tax being paid.

ATF/NFA allows the removal of the barrel of an UNREGISTERED DD so the owner is not in illegal violation of a unregistered DD. A different serial numbered barrel must be used when form 1 registering the new DD lower before the new barrel is assembled. The F1 is a taxed making.

 

 

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Not that interesting but Rekraps is correct, you take it apart and the new owner form 1 registers it as a new DD.   Some dealers still won't separate a gun this way because they are ignorant, but it's certainly doable.    There is no ser. number on the barrels in this case, and it's not necessary and not relevant, but you could number it if you wished. 

No taxable transfer has occurred, so there is no tax evasion.   I've done a number of these because these days it's much faster.   In one case I ended up buying the gun back and didn't have to do anything.

ATF actually does NOT allow the removal of the barrel of an unregistered DD, people do this on their own before they get caught, because once they are standing there with an unregistered DD you're in DS and it's too late.  DD barrels do not require numbering at all.

I have another DD inbound, but the seller would not separate.  I assumed this upfront, but 12+ months is still a joke to wait for a shotgun.  Good thing I have another if I need to scratch that itch?

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Yes, Rekraps is correct, which I never disputed, and I was just addressing a long-standing fairly common and erroneous notion for transferring a Registered DD when there isn't a licensed DD dealer to do it. You can't take the barrel off, transfer the receiver to your local non-SOT and then just put that barrel back on again. Simply that.

I pointed out the proper way to do it as well. I've had over twenty five DD's on my books over the years as an FFL07/SOTII so have some experience with them both with transfers and Form 1 registrations.

You'll notice that my comment was a QUESTION. I intended in my post to address the question I get from time to time, and now more frequently, and I'll state it again, asking if a person can just take the barrel off (a registered DD, which is the issue here) do the Title I transfer and then put the barrel back on again. Not legal. Has to go through the Form 1 manufacture with a different barrel. Otherwise it IS tax fraud.

I have disagree to the above assertion that ATF doesn't approve of removing the barrel to disengage the DD from NFA control. They certainly haven't for many years but maybe they do now, but I doubt that. Ed Owen, former head of Tech Branch told me in 1995 or thereabouts that ATF approved and accepted the removal of the barrel of an unregistered DD expressly BECAUSE the receiver became a Title I firearm, thus legal to own without paperwork and to transfer to local non-SOT, and they were actually giving owners a way to avoid being caught with an unregistered DD. This was probably Owen's suggestion and advice to ATF. He was an acquaintance of mine and was very, pro-gun, pro-MG and pro-MG collector and wanted and did help us out when possible. However, ATF's quid-pro-quo for this "allowance" was requiring that a different serial numbered barrel must be used when reassembling a barrel to the receiver after the Form 1 for manufacture had been approved. This requirement, al though of questionable until it's, was allegedly to confirm that the firearm was not previously, illegally possessed by the registrant as an unregistered DD prior to being register as a newly manufactured DD. This assumes that all DDs had the original serialed barrels on them so it is a bit unrealistic, but that's what we have.

All of the above is for informational purposes and open to discussion.

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I was speaking to the M79 in particular. My barrel is unnumbered as I have heard all original C&R M79 barrels were. My transfer went through as described with not a hitch (or much of one). 

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14 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Not that interesting but Rekraps is correct, you take it apart and the new owner form 1 registers it as a new DD.   Some dealers still won't separate a gun this way because they are ignorant, but it's certainly doable.    There is no ser. number on the barrels in this case, and it's not necessary and not relevant, but you could number it if you wished. 

No taxable transfer has occurred, so there is no tax evasion.   I've done a number of these because these days it's much faster.   In one case I ended up buying the gun back and didn't have to do anything.

ATF actually does NOT allow the removal of the barrel of an unregistered DD, people do this on their own before they get caught, because once they are standing there with an unregistered DD you're in DS and it's too late.  DD barrels do not require numbering at all.

I have another DD inbound, but the seller would not separate.  I assumed this upfront, but 12+ months is still a joke to wait for a shotgun.  Good thing I have another if I need to scratch that itch?

Exactly. I paid the $200 tax stamp with the Form 1 submission.

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For the record, I had my first Form 1 submission denied at day 59 for a missing SN on the RPF. ATF refunded $$, I resubmitted with new FP cards and 59 days later, rejected #2, Trust agreement issue. Okay, I resubmitted a third time with yet another set of FP cards and paid the tax. 
 

This time I wrote a letter to the director of the ATF and detailed my submission from start to finish. Six days later the Form 1 was approved. 
 

Have faith guys, I followed the rules and apparently someone at the ATF knew to do the right thing. 
 

Kudos to the ATF. 

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