New WH 1928 Owner, New Member to MGB, & First Problem: Bolt Locked

[GunMD]

First, good to meet all of you Machinegunboard regulars. I'm so happy to finally join the club. I've read a lot of your posts while researching 1928s and I've concluded this is THE place to be for Thompsons. There are some real experts here, for sure, and I appreciate everyone's wisdom and shared experiences. I also really like the tone of folks on here. Some other boards can get a bit harsh.

 

I recently received my first Thompson (got to love ATF weight times...). It's a 1928 West Hurley and it's already one of my favorite select fires. What impresses me most is how accurate and controllable it is. Next to an MP5-SD, it's the most controllable in full auto and that's coming from a design that's many decades older than the H&K. Impressive.

 

Unfortunately, I've had two problems with my West Hurley. First, one out of every 20 or 30 shots dents the primer without firing it. The second problem is more significant: twice now, the bolt has jammed in the forward position. The first time, a guy at the range muscled it back and it worked fine after that. Yesterday, it again jammed in the forward position (without discharging the bullet) and it's again locked up good. That happened about 100 bullets apart, so it's a regular thing it appears.

 

I know some WHs can be problematic until they've been worked over by a 1928 expert gunsmith like PK. Three questions:

 

1. Any thoughts on what could be wrong and how to free up the bolt?

 

2. Can I ship it to someone (to get it fixed) with the bullet still in the chamber?

 

3. Regardless of whether I get the bolt freed up this time, I want to get the gun working perfectly. What expert would you recommend I use to get my WH fixed right? I've heard Paul does outstanding work, but he also has a wait list for more involved projects. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

[mnshooter]

First, welcome to the board.

Second, don't even think about shipping it with a live round in the chamber.

 

The bolt jammed in the forward position against a live round requires extreme caution, and you shouldn't try anything without knowing exactly what you're doing. Clearing any jam with loaded ammo is a very dangerous procedure;

even more so with the Thompson, due to the mechanics of the bolt, hammer, and firing pin.

 

Although an UNLOADED and properly functioningThompson can be cycled by pushing against the bolt nose with a rod inserted from the muzzle,

YOU SHOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT ATTEMPT THIS WITH A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER.

 

I have cleared several rifles and handguns with this condition over the years, and won't offer any further advice here, except to not be in a hurry, and seek qualified help.

You don't say what State you are from; if you post that, there might be someone close who can help.

 

You may want to contact Reconbob for advice; see his site at: philaord.com

Edited November 28, 2015 by mnshooter

[reconbob]

To get the round out of the chamber use a sturdy flat surface like the top of a big desk

or a workbench and place the top of the receiver flat against the side of the bench with the

actuator knob against the top of the bench. Holding the gun firmly by the forend and the rear

grip push down firmly so that you are basically trying to cock the gun. All you want to do here

is break the bolt free - you are not trying to eject the cartridge - you just want to get the bolt

moving again. You are only pushing the gun maybe an inch in a short powerful movement

to free the bolt. Once the bolt is moving again carefully pull it back to full cock. The cartridge

will usually fall out or fall part way back into the chamber and you can lift the gun and let it fall

out.

The only thing I can think of that would cause this bolt jam would be that for some reason

the extractor is jamming against the rim instead of snapping over the rim. I would suspect that

the extractor may be rubbing against the slot it rides in, but if the gun works most of the time

that should not be it.

You can check your extractor by disassembling the gun and reassembling the bolt, actuator,

and H-lock without the hammer, firing pin, and spring. Turn the gun upside down (so the bottom

of the receiver is up) and put an empty case in the chamber. Sharply (but not too hard) slide the

bolt home. The extractor should easily clip over the rim of the cartridge and it should pull out

easily when you retract the bolt.

Color the outside of the front of the extractor with a dark felt tip pen. Repeat the empty cartridge

test. If the felt tip marker is rubbed off the extractor is rubbing against the inside of the slot and

this could be it.

A less likely cause could be the magazine. If a mag does not sit just right the cartridge could

bounce into the chamber instead of sliding smoothly up the feed ramp and jam, but probably not

with the bolt all the way forward. It wouldn't hurt to keep track of the mags to see if it only happens

with one mag.

Another thing to remember is that when you shoot this gun you must decisively pull the trigger

all the way so the sear drops all the way. If you squeeze the trigger like a target rifle the sear will

rub against the bottom of the bolt and slow it down and if the bolt is slower the extractor will

likely not grab the cartridge properly.

I do not think it is time to panic, but take a look at the pinned post about West Hurley lock ramps.

Thompsons can be very forgiving but if the H-lock cuts are defective this is not going to help anything.

 

Bob

Edited November 28, 2015 by reconbob

[Orion]

What ammo are your using is it new manufactured or reloads? If its reloads are the cases resized properly, is the case lenght correct?

Edited November 28, 2015 by Orion

[timkel]

Try swapping the extractor and or bolt. Use some dummy rounds for testing.

[Gio]

Bob's post is what makes this forum by far the best. It took Bob a while to write that post in great detail for a first time poster.

 

Thanks to Bob and others like him that help us all and make this the best forum on the net.

 

Welcome GunMD to the board hope you get your Thompson fixed and enjoy.

 

Frank

[Uncle Dudley]

Like Bob said, check the blish lock slots and inside the receiver channel. I had a minute burr shave off the blish slot area that jammed my bolt forward. I used a rubber mallet to drive the actuator knob rearward, while a friend steadied the gun safely. It was about the only option, at the time, and the worst that could happen was to damage the actuator. Everything was OK and I carefully filed a small rough area where the burr was and had no other issues. Check for wear and clearance by sliding the bolt and blish lock back and forth in the receiver channel (up side down on bench) with the recoil spring and pilot removed.

 

My WH has been to PK and is now perfect and better than new. It might be prettier than a Colt, too.

 

U D

[GunMD]

Mnshooter, I should have mentioned up front, I'm from Maryland.

 

I googled where Philadelphia Ordnance is, and it's not that far away. Very good to know! I've made multiple 80% ARs. I'm intrigued by an 80% Thompson (semi, of course). I'll need to research that...

 

Frank said it best. The folks who take the time to give responses like the above are what make this board great. Thank you guys so much. I couldn't have asked for a better reception! Nor a better solution. It's FIXED (at least, for now).

 

I took Bob's advice and using the table for leverage, the bolt freed up and the shell popped right out. It took most of my 215 lbs to get it moving, though, which is why I couldn't do it by hand. That leverage was just what was needed! Sweet.

 

The ammo was internet-bought, but upon further research it is indeed reloaded ammo. I opened up my last of 4 boxes and there were multiple different markings on the cases. I've got calipers, so I'll check the specs tomorrow. But Orion, you may be right... Both problems were with this ammo and the Winchester white box in contrast shot great. This ammo was made my Atlanta Arms. It's reloaded and upon further research, they are not known for their quality control. That just might be it.

 

Tomorrow night, I'll take the gun apart and check it and the ammo. I'll pay particular attention to the extractor and the blish lock slots and receiver channel. The gun came with a spare bolt and extractor, so if I run into problems using Bob's procedures, I'll swap those two parts out.

 

Thank you guys so much.

[reconbob]

I had not thought about the ammo. If the cases were not properly resized before loading

they could certainly stick in the chamber...

 

Bob

[mnshooter]

("The gun came with a spare bolt and extractor, so if I run into problems using Bob's procedures, I'll swap those two parts out").

 

Glad you got it cleared.

Pretty lucky: First time post, and you receive one of Bob's many expert contributions to this board.

 

One more important thing to check: Your actuator has a strong likelihood of being a West Hurley; either a one piece casting, or a two piece with the knob swaged into the body. Neither is one you want. A GI actuator should be on your "must have" list, along with a one piece GI buffer pilot ("recoil spring guide rod") and modern buffer.

Lots of Information on these parts already on the board.

 

When I emphasized the potential danger, and didn't have any way of judging your experience and knowledge, it was partly from a memory of watching someone with a similar cartridge jam in a Numrich Semi-auto, who put the butt on the ground, then tucked the muzzle carefully up into his armpit to steady it while he struck the cocking knob (it's not an actuator on those guns) with a hammer handle.

Edited November 29, 2015 by mnshooter

[laurencen]

years ago had a similar issue with a 1911, it turned out I had mixed a few un sized lead in the mix and they were tight enough the round did not chamber fully, real dog to get them out, factory worked fine.

 

closer looking at the rounds there was a distinct bulge in the case wall,

[buzz]

I had a problem with my 28 savage jamming with the bolt locked forward.

 

Turned out the flange around the bolt face was peened out of shape. I posted a thread about it.

 

I guess the bolt was a faulty part, or was used to hammer railroad spikes. Who knows?

 

Fortunately, it caused no damage to the receiver.

 

I replaced the entire bolt assembly with a NOS USGI bolt, firing pin, etc., and now the gun runs like the proverbial swiss watch.

 

 

People say that any part in your west hurley that isn't USGI should be replaced with USGI parts.

 

I would also replace the recoil spring, all of these subguns tend to work best with a full power spring and full power ammo.

Edited November 29, 2015 by buzz

[GunMD]

Thanks for the added info Buzz, MNshooter, Bill, and Laurencen. I couldn't find an empty .45 casing to do some tests and I'd be breaking a few laws making one at my home, so the only thing I tested so far was the bullet. The brass casing was indeed wider than the factory ammo, but I'm not sure by enough to account for the problem. Using calipers, it was .469 inch thick for the factory ammo and .472 for the reload. The specs were checked after measuring so as not to bias my measurements and it is supposed to be .469 inch. Not sure if that could account for he problem, but I look forward to doing Bill's test as well as looking at the bolt face. I'll check out your thread now, Buzz.

 

Thanks guys. This year I'm thankful for my family, the 2nd amendment, our freedoms, and... you folks on Machinegunboards. Thank you!

Edited November 30, 2015 by GunMD

[shadycon]

My Lyman book shows the following;

Case near rim .476, at opening .473

FMJ bullet width .452

Cast bullet .451

Overall length, FMJ 1.275

Overall length, cast 1.272

[PK.]

This condition is most often caused by over machining of the bolt pocket and lock slots that allows the hammer pin to slide sideways into the lock slot. When you forced the bolt to the rear you shaved off part of lock shelf. This problem will continue and the damage become progressively worse until it is corrected.

[timkel]

I use a gauge to check reloads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/a6572c91-d64d-4fce-a0b9-374b138eaf66_zpscdd41419.jpg

[laurencen]

another issue with reload cast rounds is some molds have full round nose and others have a oval or stretched the full round ones if the lead is not in far enough it will bind when chambering causing the bolt to stop short, take a good look at the ejected round that jammed and see where its tight

[ron_brock]

This condition is most often caused by over machining of the bolt pocket and lock slots that allows the hammer pin to slide sideways into the lock slot. When you forced the bolt to the rear you shaved off part of lock shelf. This problem will continue and the damage become progressively worse until it is corrected.

This is great advice from the master of fixing this problem. Do you self a favor and get on the waiting list for a makeover. You can find many posts on here of members after receiving the PK treatment.

 

Ron

[GunMD]

Thank again, guys. This weekend, I'm going to dig into the gun again and recheck the bullet measurements too. PK took the time to explain what he does and included some pictures for me to compare to. Ron, I took your advice and I'm on his waiting list.

 

Patience isn't a flower that grows in my garden, but fortunately I have some other guns to keep me busy in the meantime!

 

Cheers!

[ron_brock]

Great to hear. A PK makeover is worth the wait and will protect your investment while adding to its value.

 

Unfortunately, These are the little things that most WH owners don't find out about until after they have bought the gun and find the forum. These were not high quality guns when they were made but the prices they are demanding due to limited size of transferrables makes them seem that way.

 

After PK is done, you'll have a reliable gun that will hold its value better to a larger pool of Thompson collectors.

 

Ron

Edited December 2, 2015 by ron_brock

[jpw43]

This condition is most often caused by over machining of the bolt pocket and lock slots that allows the hammer pin to slide sideways into the lock slot. When you forced the bolt to the rear you shaved off part of lock shelf. This problem will continue and the damage become progressively worse until it is corrected.

Exactly what happened to mine.

The hammer pin was getting stuck in the slot.

PK, you fixed it perfectly, now it never misses a beat!

[buzz]

Maybe the OP could put a little silver solder on one side of the pin to keep it from walking out of the bolt?

 

that way he can enjoy shooting the gun while he's on the waiting list to have the slots re-worked

[timkel]

for a temporary fix- shorten the hammer pin then lightly stake both side of bolt to keep pin captive.

[buzz]

That's a better idea, stake the bolt a little

[laurencen]

better Peen the pin, I think once the bolt is staked it can never be original, the pin is cheap compared to the bolt