Petroleum 1 Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Nice rewat bring back too bad they couldnt refit the original barrel. Something i notice is this gun is probably 42-43 mfg it has the later war ribbed mag housing stamped trigger assembly but the receiver is old style hook with no notch cut out?? Thx Vinny http://www.gunbroker.com/item/718459824 Sent from my iPhone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 When its a parts gun how much extra $ does a unmodified reviver w hook bring? What if its all original ? How much extra for hook How much for 660 slab side ? To me once its a parts gun or Rewat the value is just above a tube gun As for the story. They all have one. They are nazi bringbacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 I wonder if the old original parts can be restored and installed?? Maybe bob can comment Im sure hes seen it before tia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) The end cap is bnz 41 marked. It's a gun that escaped the safety modification of early 1942. If a gun had to be dewatted, this was one of the better ways to do it, with no damage to the receiver. Shame about the boogered bolt slots, though. Also looks like someone did some damage to the original barrel components. It's hard to tell how the gun would look with those installed for display. Thanks for posting! Edited November 18, 2017 by TSMGguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) '41 dated gun that was't upgraded with the safety cocking handle. Bring back documented history from St Lo is extremely rare and adds very significant value. There is no 660 code and only the usual early bnz.No apparent evidence of welding of original barrel nut to receiver, although closer inspection might reveal some disturbance.Original barrel can be restored and it doesn't appear damaged except for where the nut goes over it towards the breech missing the bluing. Pics don't tell the whole story here.Many DEWATed MGs have been restored with virtually no evidence of the deactivation process.A reactivated MG that is well restored now has close to equal value with an example in comparable condition that has not been deactivated. Years ago when there were really a lot of high condition live MGs around on the market along with similar DEWATs, the case could be made that a DEWAT had less value but those days are long gone.The notion that a reactivated DEWAT has no more value than a tube gun is irrational. There are have been more and more collectors of vintage MGs that have been fully refinished and will pay close to or the same price as an unrefinished example. I've brokered some guns like this in the last few years and know of others as well that I have been asked to review and assess. these buyers loo for and want to buy shiney, new looking MGs. Sad, in my opinion, but that's one of the flukes of any collector market. Unfortunately, this trend is not very new and the downside is that more and more well preserved but used and antique looking vintage MGs get refinished and that evidence of history is lost.This gun has legitimate history and the deactivation is a minor issue especially with the oringal parts with it that can be repaired an reassembled with it. Edited November 18, 2017 by Black River Militaria CII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Ruben has had this one for awhile: https://dealernfa.com/shop/german-wwii-mp40-cr-9mm-mp40-6563/ He had a couple not too long ago, that were similar but looked a little better, that went for around $25K. Nice WWII bring-back C&R MP40's are going up in value rapidly. This is pulling up the value of tube guns IMO (for the more budget conscientious). A nice C&R gun, which can still be found for a couple of thousand over a tube gun if you're lucky, has a lot more upside potential as a collectible IMO. I agree this one is priced on the high side, but you know the old adage: "I didn't pay too much I bought too soon." Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Ahh i missed the end cap photo its a 41 mfg thx. Do you guys think that bent bolt guide will affect operation, i wonder how that happened. Any chance those old parts can be cleaned up and put in firing condition?? How would you touch up the original finish on the scrapes in the old parts?? Thx Vinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Cant you get a flawless original gun for $20-23k? Id assume fixing this one would be $1000+ And still a Rewat. Does the story really add that much? Thousands. Im trying to get a feel for pricing. And I see some sell for a great price and some sell for $4,000 more that would seem lesser guns. I look back at the one for $15,998 Rewat that saved the barrel. Numbers matching refinished barrel original finish the rest of the gun. And red grips. I see that as a great deal. Yet he had to lower the price to sell. Now look at this $23k gun on GB which seems much less of a gun. Both Rewat. $7,000 price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Black river. To the Rewat vs tube pricing. Ive seen 2 mp40s sell for high end tube prices One on gun w a dented grip. Was that $13,226 or something like that. And $15,999 for a Rewat Both In the past 2-3 months. I dont have years of experience pricing these. Just trying to understand it so I can buy one. Its confusing the huge difference in pricing I see You dont see Thompsons being 25% different for similar guns. Im starting to get it that most mp40s are rewats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Today, anything worth having is going to be seem very pricy. It's a complete seller's market, and there are buyers out there to whom $25K is pocket change. There won't be a lot of room for negotiation on nice pieces. It is what it is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Find a gun with no problems no rework nothing to do, no replace parts or mess with and buy it you will save stress bull crap looking for parts and people to do work on it and whatever the cost buy it if it is 20 grand great done deal. What is all the time worth and pictures and shopping. Somebody advertise a nice one NO ISSUE MP-40 BUY IT Or drive yourself mentally nuts asking a hundreds questions...I will be shopping for one soon also.And my route find one buy it done with it.I remember Buyers who would come to me wanting Thompsons and would not pay the price five years later still shopping for one and guess what price went up over 10 grand.. Don't think they ever even got to own one.. But man they could tell you all about what they never owned. on fixer up guns and dewat problem children. Leave them.Enjoy the good stuff. It is out There. Colt21 A Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Today, anything worth having is going to be seem very pricy. It's a complete seller's market, and there are buyers out there to whom $25K is pocket change. There won't be a lot of room for negotiation on nice pieces. It is what it is. yes 100% correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) I have not seen one for sale yet that is original, numbers matching , good finish , no issues I see beat upRewatReplaced barrels and parts And prices ranging from $13,500 to $23,000 for guns the in similar condition. All issues of some sort. No reason nicer ones sell for $16,000 and worse ones sell for thousands more and more quickly. Im not in a huge hurry and looking back 2-3 months Ive seen several I would have taken. Recently I do not see any good deals or even reasonable deals yet they sell Pick another gun. Mac 11. They all sell within $1,000 of each other. Pic a 2nd gun. Uzi. All vectors sell within $1-2,000 depending on condition Now go to mp40s. They sell within $7,000 of each other. Im just trying to understand. Im a buyer. This will be my 10th fa. The Thompson also took time as not many to choose from. Mp40s show up weekly. Just pricing all over the place Edited November 19, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandman1957 Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Remember, these are guns that were captured and brought back by folks who captured or killed the people they took it from. Then they had to lug them around for awhile while still fighting. Few will be in good shape. Pristine shape and killing don't normally go hand in hand. Edited November 19, 2017 by Sandman1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Remember, these are guns that were captured and brought back by folks who captured or killed the people they took it from. Then they had to lug them around for awhile while still fighting. Few will be in good shape. Pristine shape and killing don't normally go hand in hand. i know Steve... you didnt baby your M16 when you were in the field? im not really even looking for pretty...just some consistency in pricing so a newbie can figure out what a good deal is and what a rip off is....right now i cant tell i see blah selling for $20,000 and ones i think are pretty darn nice that sold for $13,000-$16,000......just have to wait around until another one of those shows up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I think if you watch Ruben's prices it will give you a pretty good feel for the market. He's on the high side, but you'll notice a lot of his items sell quickly. Someone like him who makes his living selling NFA items, as long as he's been doing it, has to have a good pulse on the market and prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I do believe that a lot of the fun in NFA collectibles is the hunt for the right gun. On the issue of tube versus C&R, I'm interested in a C&R STEN gun. If you look at Ruben's website, you see a C&R STEN as follows: https://dealernfa.com/shop/cr-sten-mkii-wwii-british-f699040/ I'd rather have an original finish bring-back in good condition. Ruben has a number of tube STEN's for $4,000 less: https://dealernfa.com/shop/sten-mkii-erb-excellent-e534/ I think that gives you a pretty good feel for market prices. If you buy from an individual, and not a dealer, you can do better on the price (but you have to find it and then it may sell before you have the opportunity to buy it--particularly if you're prone to "analysis-paralysis"). While looking, I look for accessories like magazines and magazine loaders that periodically come up on the boards at bargain prices. I already found eight nice condition STEN magazines and an Austen mag loader at a super price. I can always sell the accessories if I don't get the STEN, but I like to think optimistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Nobody has a pulse they are all over the map on prices today. Why because those with big bucks don't care, Or a guy who paid 5 grand for a 21 in the 80's sells it today for 40 grand has the money to buy something else he is out 40 grand nope his original 5 grand he paid. I knew a guy {good friend} had ten new in box M-16 A1 in one of his safe's.. total outlay 10 grand.. he said yep worth over 200 grand today. did not care if he even sold one. However if he did see a nice gun he wanted or two or three he had in one safe 200 grand to fall back on. So many have what I call old money /guns... Stuff they bought decades ago, and they can sell today. And spend on something else. So if a MP-40 comes out and somebody asks 25 grand and it sells quickly It could be one of those customer/Buyer, And the smaller collector who does not have tons of extra cash to buy with. And for whatever reason it seems to get worse people just pay it blindly Like a 65 grand truck lets get it honey.. or a 500 grand house lets do it and yeah and Henry can do the pool and landscape for another 100 grand. And yet others are happy to have a few 45's and a semi AR-15, Or most of all great Health. Because w/o that what does some collection mean? Someone else will own it soon.. Been there done that Burned the T-shirt. So just look around talk to other collectors. More then a gun broke ad, or only watch two dealers. And hit the show's.....I actually bought a cased 21ac Thompson once at a show selling a Thompson book to one guy as another one watched the deal he walked up to me and says would you like to buy a gun that was on the cover of that book. #6349 Illinois State Police gun turned up that way. Get ready to be sick $3,500.00 Later sold at $7500 to Lamont and I think resold for 40 grand crazy huh? I could put a book together just on deal's ha ha {Interesting deals}If I locate a nice MP-40 I will let you know.have fun that is what it is all about to begin with and the History... Colt 21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 give me 4-5 months and ill find the deal.....i have a feeling one of my offers may come back to me and accept in 2-4 weeks.....i dont see it selling as is i upped it $200 to help, but were still $1800 apart...and im not budging as its not my dream gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Reuben doesn't really "make a living" from it. He's old, effectively retired with other sources of funding so pricing is not as relevant to the overall market as others who attempt to solely make a living off of it. I can't really think of any actual full time "non-retired" actual machine gun dealers anymore who do it entirely for a sole income source other than autoweapons, but I don't think that is what it is anymore either? Maybe Vito is the last guy left? Times have changed and the business has morphed a lot to internet and auction houses vs. the dealer network. Auction houses and brokers sell other people's stuff that they cannot afford to buy or stock and a potential dumping ground for those who may want to distance themselves from a problem child. Course that was inevitable since May of 1986 when effectively everyone became a used car dealer, and since you can only buy in a market with a fixed number of used cars, the US has effectively become the Havana Cuba of automatic small arms. Looking for the showroom new 1940's MP40 is a pipedream. Get the best you think you can get with the funds available and be prepared to maintain a 1940's item of which EVERY single one has been messed with somehow. I happen to enjoy working on the stuff and have a full machine shop to deal with it, but some guys should really be more focused on plug and play modern stuff like M16's and Uzi's. Finding skilled equipped repairmen and restorer's for antiques is tough for most now, and will get worse in the future. Try taking a 67 mustang to the ford dealer for a carb repair? LOL As to the gun referenced, the hook handle adds nothing to the value, some mfrs. will add some since there are a few guys looking for the last code they don't have and could pay a premium? The paperwork adds some value, but is in the eye of the beholder. I personally would like it, but wouldn't pay anything extra for it. They all have a history of war service regardless of whether you see it on paper which is where all the value lies IMO. Documentation of "bringing back" something adds nothing to the monetary value to me. I heard they all came from Germany....one way or another? Edited November 19, 2017 by johnsonlmg41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Ruben ''can'' be an indicator on the market...some of his guns sell quickly...many,many dont...some sit for 6-12 months....does that really make him a correct indicator? i would agree it makes him ''one'' indicator.....i disagree if you knock 5-10% off his price that it IS the market...he had some colt thompsons that sat over a year...he's got WW2 thompsons right now that arent selling(or not quick)....Spiwak is more of a market indicator to me as his guns move....he sells in 1-2 months or less... true market is GB sold auctions...but even then---i had a M11a1 i wanted....it was medeocre condition and sold for $7,550.....the 2nd one came from the same seller...in much better shape...this one $7,200.....then another...$6,800.....the $6,800 gun was nicer than the $7,550.....so where is the market on M11a1;s? somewhere between $6800 and $7,550......all depends on who is looking and how deep their pockets are at a moment in time.... i want to believe the market is this gunhttp://www.gunbroker.com/item/715421387 took 5 weeks to sell at this price...all # matching except for a thread protector and this onehttp://www.gunbroker.com/item/703000430 better shape finish wise....# parts gun...most # dont match both were older slab sides $18,500 to $19,500 for decent guns now we look at the current batch.....now the current GB one for $23,000....rewat, later model, non matching....there are no bids which doesnt surprise me...but Frank sold a similar one for $20,000 this past week.... this one has the hook and unaltered receiver.....but its not a slab sides.... id think this would be more of a $17,000-$18,000 gun at best.....where am i thinking wrong? Here's the one i wish i could have had---$16,000...all # match, original finish except for barrel.....perfect price for a shooter....i see many things about this gun that are nicer than the $23,000 gun on GB.......other than the hook and the story this gun attracts me much more...and $7,000 less http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7253-wts-transferable-erma-cr-mp40-15995/#comment-20745 Edited November 19, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) You are wrong in your perception that there is a "market". There is no "market" where multiples of the exact same vintage machine guns are offered up in one geographical area at one timeframe with a pool of buyers standing nearby. Every gun is a one off sale, every gun differs from the next, most are offered in vastly different venues in significantly different time frames with a miniscule amount of sellers and a smaller amount of buyers. Your couple month timeframe is rather funny given that time in this hobby is generally measured in years, sometimes decades before a deal is reached on a very nice gun that is fitted to a particular collection. Months is fine for Uzi's, Mac's, and generic M16's but for "collectibles" that is not an accurate measure of time. "All matching except"? I love statements like that. Indeed that was a nice gun however, IMO. But you did not buy it? It took 5 weeks to sell because.......there is no market and it took that long for "the" single buyer to find the venue, and timing when he had the funds currently available........to make the "one off" deal on that specific gun. If I'm not mistaken the current one is matching, just some of the matching parts are not currently on the gun? That, as Bob noted is really not a big deal and may be a bonus depending on the buyer's perspective.Or you buy one that is close to your specifications, and when a better one comes along you upgrade and sell the first one. I've done that a number of times on vintage guns. Edited November 19, 2017 by johnsonlmg41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) not a big deal is still $1,000+ id assume..plus some refinished parts or marred parts when complete.....without the gun in front of him to correctly judge there could also be surprises.. you are correct in that each gun is a 1 off buyer....it IS different than a Uzi or Mac as its more rare and condition varies widely whereas a Uzi and Mac do not i think the story on this gun is what the seller is counting on....each gun has a story...its neat to know this particular story, but its just another story to me.... we will see how long it sits on GB and how low the price drops to to make the sale...for me? its not in my shooter grade budget....ive got a couple collector grade guns of various degrees...i dont need another at this time.....i enjoy the cheaper guns as much as the $35k ones Edited November 19, 2017 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I know of a complete MP-38 RIG Bring back from Interarmco/Interarms Owner.Still sitting all matching 98% cond.Muzzle cover, Pouch set, sling.six mags. Offered over 25 grand for it probably ten years ago now.He said Ron I have it tagged for you when I go.. And another all matched Original vet Bring back in town, six mags sling offered him 20 grand> A buddy of mine.He says that's nice, Even 30 grand won't do it {not for sale!}do not ever sell guns to millionaire type guys they won't sell them back.. tried to get my "Berlin Sniper" K-43 rig back for 3 grand more than sold for. no deal.. and the guy I think has probably ten of them. And on my old 1919 Colt Commercial B.A.R. And my Mason City Dillinger Bank robbery gun.DREAM ON.. AND A THOUSAND OTHERS.History it was fun...So best is if you find one Pony up the bucks and be done with it. And don't watch Where Eagles Dare it will just make you frustrated good luck Colt21A Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geefal Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Personally, I am not such a worrier over non numbers matching if the armorers marks match on the parts that are not matching. When guns were brought off the front line to be "fixed" at that point and time numbers will of course no longer match. But. The armorer will do another round of markings on his work, as such if you find one which does not have matching #'s on everything, but is matching on armorers marks, it is still an "original" gun. Yes there are plenty of guns which were put together from piles of parts right after the war or before the end of registering stuff. To me (and this is a personal opinion) as long as it was as it was used and issued (i.e. armorers markings), it is all original and that is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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