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British Army WW2 Small Arms Training Pamphlet 21


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attachicon.gif EPSON041_1.jpgattachicon.gif EPSON039_1.jpg

 

I have this small booklet, its missing the cover and first couple pages. Approximately 62 pages.

Can anyone tell me how old it is?

Steve,

That looks like the Auto-Ordnance Corporations Edition of 1940 Handbook of the Thompson Submachine gun Model of 1928, which has seen better days.

1940 AOC 1928 Handbook NY Address.JPG

Stay safe

 

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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While looking through my AOC Handbook collection to find a match with Steve's handbook for the above post, I found a Canadian match book cover inside one of them, which I had forgotten about.

 

Canadian TSMG Bookmatch cover.JPG

 

Just scanned it now, I guess I should take the time to catalogue my collection, one of these days.

 

On more than one occasion in the past, while away from home, I have bought an item I already have, including a 2nd copy of the old TSMG article from the Oct.1920 issue of the Scientific American "A Pocket Machine Gun" by Capt. E.C. Crossman.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

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LDV Home Guard manuals. More interesting paper.

attachicon.gif BRIT HG MANUALS001 copy.jpg

 

Great additions, 11th edition marked on one, so plenty more out there to find?

 

Interesting enough, on the cover, it says one of the Authors of the Small arms Manual was Brigadier J A Barlow of the West Yorkshire Regt. That is the Regiment my grandfather served with, although when that book was published, he may have been with the BEF in France or in Germany as a POW, having been captured close to Dunkirk, depending in the date in the Manual.

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This morning I found some photos and information in my 'inbox' from David Albert, concerning the New Zealand and Italian SAT 21's and also more information about the "Know your Weapons No.1 - Tommy Gun Rifle and Bayonet", published by Nicholson & Watson,in the commercial manual post.

 

So he whet my appetite and I have edited the original posts, adding the photos and information provided by David, hopefully to whet yours too!

 

Stays safe

 

Richard

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In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

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In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

 

Alan,

Well spotted, I thought I had been good at identifying and noting all the differences, but obviously for that detail, I couldn't see the forest for the trees, although it was in plain sight.

 

It is possible that this example is one of the early Savage guns that AOC supplied without compensators, at the request of the British looking to reduce costs. In Oct 1940 an order was placed by the British for 27,000 Thompson without compensators and there are several photos of TSMGs without Compensators being used, by both commando and Home guard units.

 

cmd_norge.jpg 6th Order TSMG.jpg

 

As stated in the original post above, Tom Davis provides details on the Model of 1928s bought by the British without compensators in his book, 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story', a recommend read for anyone interested in the early WW2 history of the TSMG and you'll find more photos of TSMGs without compensators in there.

 

​Then again, circumstantial evidence in the Gale & Polden booklets you refer too, may support your assumption, as the markings on the Thompson photographed on page 9 appears to be Colt's Patent Firearms Mfg Co etc. and the photo on page 25 is damning support for your argument.

 

 

Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 9.JPG Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 25.JPG

 

Stay safe

 

​Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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The British Admiralty Book of Reference like the one Taliaferro cited in an above post (B.R. 247) are very difficult to find (at least for me). One of the more interesting Admiralty books I have found is B.R. 646, discussed on page 139 of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Shooting a Thompson guns at aerial targets sounds like a lot fun if the targets are not shooting back at you!

 

R00137 - crop resize.jpg R00137 - crop resize - Copy.jpg

 

 

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Having just received the 1940 edition of the Australian SAT Pamphlet 21 in the mail today, I have added more information from that to the original post, together with photos and have also added more information concerning the British 1940 Edition SAT Pamphlet 21 Amendment No.2 dated 8th October 1941, again with relevant photos.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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The British Admiralty Book of Reference like the one Taliaferro cited in an above post (B.R. 247) are very difficult to find (at least for me). One of the more interesting Admiralty books I have found is B.R. 646, discussed on page 139 of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Shooting a Thompson guns at aerial targets sounds like a lot fun if the targets are not shooting back at you!

 

attachicon.gif R00137 - crop resize.jpg attachicon.gif R00137 - crop resize - Copy.jpg

Tom,

I guess the aerial targets would have to be flying very low for a Thompson to be effective in an anti aircraft role?

 

​Stay safe

 

Richard

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In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

Alan,

On a similar note, I have just noticed, and not sure how many times I have looked at these pamphlets over the years, that the photo of the TSMG shown above in Plate 1, in the 2nd 1941 issue of the 1940 dated Pamphlet, appears to be a Colt Thompson. Looking at the markings on the rear of the receiver, they appear to be 'Colts Patent Firearms Mfg Co' etc.

 

CPFMCo Markings 1940 editon SAT.JPG

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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Yes I have noticed this previously. It would be nice to find a higher resolution copy of the photo where the serial number can be read.

 

In one of the commercialy produced booklets that were printed in the war on the TSMG, (cant remember which one now), there is a very clear photo of the markings on a Colt made gun, showing the model as 1928. This actual gun is in a private collection in London and I have examined it and taken photos, it is marked Model 1921, the photo in the booklet has been expertly air brushed to change the model to 1928, in keeping with the model that was actually being issued.

 

I did post a thread about this a few years ago,

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

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Alan,


Indeed, it is in Gale & Poldens "The Thompson Submachine Gun - Mechanism Made Easy", I have edited post #19 with that information and added photo.



Please pass a note onto the current owner, if he ever wanted to sell it, you know an interested party....it would be a nice example to see in 'person'.



Stay safe


Richard

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  • 3 months later...

Having just opened my mail after an absence from home of almost five weeks, amongst the bills etc., there were a few interesting items, including two more SAT Pamphlets. Another version of the 1942 dated SAT Pamphlet 21, (Printed by the Printing and Stationary Service, M.E.F), and also a 1945 dated SAT Pamphlet 11 (India), so I have added these additions to my collection, to the original post, together with photos.



Stay safe


Richard

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  • 7 months later...

Ok here is a better look at the BR 247 and the Home Guard manual that is similar to Pam. 21

 

BR247 is 6 pages with two line drawings of saliors

 

attachicon.gif cover.jpgattachicon.gif cen.jpgattachicon.gif back.jpg

 

Northumberland HG is 6 PP no art and no printing names or numbers.

 

attachicon.gif hg copy.jpgattachicon.gif p1.jpg

 

The Home guard pamphlet reminded me that earlier this year I received a four page pamphlet for the Model of 1928, which does not have any line drawings, photographs or references to who published it. One fellow board member that I shared this discovery with, suggested it may have been a private printing for a home guard unit.

 

Tom Cover.jpg

Page 1.JPG Page 2&3.JPG Page 4.JPG

 

I have also just edited the post on the Gale & Polden "The Thompson Submachine Gun - Mechanism Made Easy", with a Sales flyer for the book I obtained earlier this month.

 

Stay Safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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  • 1 month later...

In this mornings mail, I received two more SAT 21's, another Canadian version printed in 1944, but reprinted in 1948 and another printed by the M.E.F. printing and stationary service in Cairo, but this one is dated 1944. I have added these to the original post, with photos.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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  • 1 month later...

This evening I stumbled upon an interesting photo, which I had not seen before. It shows British troops, maybe Home Guard, I can not make out the shoulder titles on the uniforms, receiving Thompson submachine gun training.

 

Bottom right of the photo is something I found of interest, two Thompson transit chests, referred to in post #1.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

 

HG TSMG Transit chests.JPG

 

 

Here is a link, originally posted almost 10 years ago, which covers the British Thompson Transit chests in more detail.

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11386&hl=

Edited by rpbcps
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In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

 

Alan,

Well spotted, I thought I had been good at identifying and noting all the differences, but obviously for that detail, I couldn't see the forest for the trees, although it was in plain sight.

 

It is possible that this example is one of the early Savage guns that AOC supplied without compensators, at the request of the British looking to reduce costs. In Oct 1940 an order was placed by the British for 27,000 Thompson without compensators and there are several photos of TSMGs without Compensators being used, by both commando and Home guard units.

 

attachicon.gif cmd_norge.jpg attachicon.gif 6th Order TSMG.jpg

 

As stated in the original post above, Tom Davis provides details on the Model of 1928s bought by the British without compensators in his book, 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story', a recommend read for anyone interested in the early WW2 history of the TSMG and you'll find more photos of TSMGs without compensators in there.

 

​Then again, circumstantial evidence in the Gale & Polden booklets you refer too, may support your assumption, as the markings on the Thompson photographed on page 9 appears to be Colt's Patent Firearms Mfg Co etc. and the photo on page 25 is damning support for your argument.

 

 

attachicon.gif Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 9.JPG attachicon.gif Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 25.JPG

 

Stay safe

 

​Richard

 

A higher definition copy of the Photo showing the 1928A's.

HG Model of 1928A.JPG

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Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.

Second pic definitely older guys.

Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

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Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.

Second pic definitely older guys.

Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

John,

With reference to your post "but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular forces so were given Home Guard", I'd like to draw your attention to something I recently read, which prior to reading, I had the same perception of the Home Guard myself.

By chance during an internet search, I came across a PhD thesis wrote by a British Army Veteran Dale Clarke, titled “Arming the British Home Guard, 1940-1944”.

In this he points out, it is a misconception that the home guard was made up entirely of elderly men and younger men not fit for service, which he points out is due to the post war film and TV industry’s ‘perception’ of the Home guard portrayed in the classic 1970’s British TV comedy series Dads Army.. Dale Clarke states "In the public mind Dad’s Army was the Home Guard, and the Home Guard was Dad’s Army. More than that, Dad’s Army is seen to represent the armed aspect of the Home Front”. He does points out though that, “Indeed, entire demographic groups are omitted – specifically, female auxiliaries, men of military age in reserved occupations, and the political (left-wing) element that was so influential during the earlier part of the Home Guard’s existence”

In his thesis he also mentions the Thompson gun, although repeating the story that half of the Thompsons sent to Britain were lost to U-Boat attacks crossing the Atlantic, a subject Tom Davis dispels with facts in his book “Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story.

“Given the desperate imperative to provide submachine guns to the British army, and the fact that half the guns ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic, that any were issued to the Home Guard must be taken as evidence of the importance of the Home Guard as a military force – to share such a scarce resource in desperate circumstances, cannot easily be dismissed as ‘tokenism’. Indeed once sufficient supplies of the mass-produced Sten ‘machine carbine’ were available in 1943, all Thompsons were withdrawn from the Home Guard and issued to regular units”.

If interested, you can access Dale Clarkes thesis, free of charge on:

https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/1826/6164/1/Clarke%20D%20M

or buy a copy, it is now published as a book:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Britain%27s+Final+Defence%3A+Arming+the+Home+Guard+1940-1944&ref=nb_sb_noss

I enjoyed reading the thesis myself, which is well researched.

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.

Second pic definitely older guys.

Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

As both bolts are forward, and no ejected brass in sight, I'll figure they were just posing, and their schnozzes suffered no damage. :happy:

Edited by mnshooter
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Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.

Second pic definitely older guys.

Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

As both bolts are forward, and no ejected brass in sight, I'll figure they were just posing, and their schnozzes suffered no damage. :happy:

 

I'd agree, part of the British propaganda campaign in 1940 following Dunkirk, to show the Germans they were better equipped, than they actually were, as they desperately awaited delivery of weapons from the USA.

 

Here is another propaganda shot... with a 'surplus' Tommy gun, lying on the ground! One with a horizontal fore grip and the other two appear to have Vertical fore grips.

HG Exercise.JPG

Edited by rpbcps
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Until recently I have never seen or heard anyone else who has found any Small Arms training Volume 1 pamphlets produced by South Africa, so I presumed they may have not produced one.

 

Then I stumbled upon one, SAT Pamphlet No.5 for the Anti-Tank Rifle produced in 1942 by the Union of South Africa.

 

USA SAT 5.JPG

 

So I presume that SAT Pamphlet No.21 for the Thompson Machine Carbine also exists. As the pamphlet above also states the 1942 edition supersedes a previous one, I am presuming, maybe wrongly, there may be a whole series of the pamphlet, like the British, Canadian, and New Zealand versions, produced in 1940, 1942 and 1944.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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I have edited the original post #1, with the addition of two more SAT 21 Pamphlets, with photos, that I have recently added to my collection.

 

They are both written in the Hebrew language, they are dated 1942 and 1946.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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Union of South Africa, Small Arms Training Volume 1 Pamphlet 21,The Machine Carbine 1944, found and photo added to post # 1

 

Stay safe

Richard

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