Value of a Colt Thompson with a replaced barrel?

[michaelkih]

What do you think of this Colt Thompson as far as cost goes? All parts appear to be original except for the barrel. Trying to help a friend buy it. It is not an amazing example, but it is coming from a very trusted seller.

[michaelkih]

Thanks for the help everyone!

[reconbob]

Unfortunately once the barrel is changed the gun is no longer original and even though

its a Colt it is now a shooter. My opinion - and of course everybody has one - is that a

non-original barrel reduces the value of the gun by $5K.

 

Bob

Edited February 25, 2019 by reconbob

[TD.]

I agree whole heartedly with Bob. It is now a shooter grade Colt's. Period. Be sure and inspect the Colt's carefully. I have noted that one non-original part often leads to the discovery of another...and another. Search the Forum on the serial number. Perhaps, something has been posted about this Colt's previously.

 

Good luck!

[jim c 351]

While a complete original Colt Thompson is worth more, this could be an excellent buy if you get it for a good price.

I suppose one could say that any Colt sporting a 1932 Cutts comp doesn't have the original barrel.

Jim C

[TD.]

Jim,

I can't say that. But I do look forward to seeing the documentation you are relying on to make that point.

[Rimcrew]

Is that S/N 5863? If so read here:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23019&hl=

 

Again, if it is 5863, I told the seller I was passing on it due to the dewat/rewat status and he got pretty upset.

 

Specifically, this comment: I just checked my 3rd Edition of Gordon's book. NO 5863 was originally sold as a 21AC, owned at one time by J. Curtis Earl, and later ended up in California as a dewat. That would explain the "new" appearing barrel. I would also want to inspect it closely for any other deficiencies or missing parts.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Rimcrew

[jim c 351]

Tom,

I remember reading that all Thompsons, as they left Colt, had 1921 barrels without a comp.

In 1928 a type 1 comp was fitted to some of these guns but this was found to be less than satisfactory.

So, new barrels were made, in 1932, that were larger in diameter at the muzzle and a type 2 comp was installed on these barrels.

After 1932 many guns had the original barrels removed and a new barrel with a type 2 comp was installed.

Therefore the gun with the replaced barrel would not have been the original as made in 1921.

Do you have ant documentation to show me in error??

Jim C

[TD.]

Good eye. I believe this Colt's is NO 5863. If so, I would want to know who did the reactivation. I would also want to inspect the original barrel and have it as part of any deal. Was the grip mount changed too? If so, Colt's or GI? This would definitely be a Colt's to inspect in person. Show me the receiver nose! Since it is now a shooter grade Colt's, I would want to fire it.

 

I would compare the asking price to one Ruben has for sale with an original barrel.

 

Jim,

I don't have any documentation or evidence to show the Type 1 compensators were less than satisfactory. Many are still serving well today. The change to a larger diameter compensator did not require a barrel change. The original 1921A barrel boss would work fine. What you are saying has been banded about the Thompson community for years. But no one has been able to show that it actually happened. And no one has been able to point to a time when there was a glut of Colt's 21A take-off barrels on the market. Reading stuff on the Internet does not make it true. But is does make for good discussion.

[colt21a]

Barrels Colt barrels are you guys really joking been doing the game for well over forty plus years have had two original Colt barrels in that time frame one mint used. and the one i have now a new Colt never installed on a gun. So who has this treasure trove of Colt barrels. can it be Stembridge warehouse or maybe Sarco or the Irish mob. Or some spot in England or Russia. Or maybe Numrich had a bunch. Like the original new in wrap Spare parts kit.Even Curt said to me decades ago he had none extra just some used blank rusted or shot out. And would pay well over a few grand to buy some in the late 80's.

 

And if a guy has a Colt barrel on a gun why is it way less value.a guy finds a Tiger tank the Germans repainted a different scheme in 1945 it is what 20 grand less its a repaint?

Or a original tank upgraded.WOW would it be shock if 30% of Thompsons had original Colt rebarrel with original Colt barrels HOW can you tell now?Colt21a Ron

[michaelkih]

I looked the gun up as well. Thanks everyone. My friend is going to pass on it because of what it is. Nice gun though. Damn shame about the new barrel. I actually wish I could buy it as a second Colt Thompson as a nice shooter. Oh well. Thanks again everyone.

[TD.]

When Colt's sold for $2000 and were mainly used for shooters, people did not care about the barrels. Today at $25,000 plus apiece, they care. I get it!

 

What was the asking price on NO 5863?

[ron_brock]

When Colt's sold for $2000 and were mainly used for shooters, people did not care about the barrels. Today at $25,000 plus apiece, they care. I get it!

 

What was the asking price on NO 5863?

$50,000,000

 

Or trade

 

Ron

[jim c 351]

Tom,

I didn't get the idea for my post #8 from the internet, but I got it from reading Doug Richardson's manual "Thompson Technical," volume 1 ,second addition, page 87.

But , for all I know Doug may have got the notion from the internet.

As far as not knowing where all the take off barrels are, we don't even know what happened to all the Thompson guns.

But I will concede that you are far more knowledgeable when it comes to Thompson guns than Doug.

Jim C

[Rimcrew]

I looked the gun up as well. Thanks everyone. My friend is going to pass on it because of what it is. Nice gun though. Damn shame about the new barrel. I actually wish I could buy it as a second Colt Thompson as a nice shooter. Oh well. Thanks again everyone.

 

I'm curious what they are asking for it, as well. He mentioned $35 to $45 when I spoke with him - a fairly broad range.

 

Has he settled on a price?

[ron_brock]

35-45 (I assume thousand) is a broad range and too high for this gun, in my opinion. I dont know what the drum is, have not seen good pics. A Colt with replacement barrel would be a hard sell at $35k, in my mind. There were better buys from St. Louis

 

Ron

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Jim,

I can't say that. But I do look forward to seeing the documentation you are relying on to make that point.

 

AOC did advertise in the 1936 Auto-Ordnance Corporation law enforcement catalog (31 Nassau Street catalog) that when a customer ordered a Colt TSMG with the new 2nd pattern marked Cutts Compensator the replacement barrel was an additional cost.

 

"Cutts Compensator fitted to Thompson Gun barrel at factory ---(barrel extra)....$25.00

Edited February 25, 2019 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

35K for a Colt's with a replacement barrel is way too steep in my opinion unless the Colt's is a very hard to find variation, i.e., 2 or early 3 digit, very very late or 15,000 serial number range, Model of 1927, especially the "A" variation, etc. Each Colt's has to be graded on its own merits. I see nothing special about NO 5863 except it was a dewat at one time (and that is not a plus).

 

Jim,

I commend you for citing a source. I have seen that quote by Doug in his publication. I do not understand why a ring front sight cannot be removed from an original 21A barrel and the barrel boss threaded for a Type 2 compensator. While I do not claim to know how to thread a barrel (or even turn on the lathe), it appears to me it would be easier to fit the Type 2 compensator than the earlier Type 1 compensator.

 

Arthur,

We have had that discussion in the past. It does not go anywhere. The picture of the compensator in the 1936 AOC catalog appears to be a Type 1. Show me some documentation. Or show me a glut of original 21A Colt's barrels on the market in the past. I am very open minded.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

We have had that discussion in the past. It does not go anywhere. The picture of the compensator in the 1936 AOC catalog appears to be a Type 1. Show me some documentation. Or show me a glut of original 21A Colt's barrels on the market in the past. I am very open minded.

 

Grainy photo recycled from 1928 catalogs? AOC was only selling and fitting Type II Lyman manufactured Cutts Compensators by 1936. The designs (Barrel , Thompson Submachine Gun, updated version of AOC manufacturing drawing # 45-1-1) for the new Cutts Compensator threading do not show the existing pin cove that would exist on original 1921 ring sight barrels and barrels with 1st pattern Cutts. The dates of changes show January, 1935 and March, 1937. But why would there be a glut of 1921A barrels on the market today when AOC removed them, not the owners of the TSMGs? Why would AOC keep the used barrels from returned TSMGs to be retro-fitted after removal rather than dispose of them? For that matter, where are the glut of spare Remington made barrels that were made in 1921 that would wind up in the AOC assets crates sold post WWII? Numrich wasn't selling them in 1951-57.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

AOC never referenced which type of compensator would be installed on a Thompson returned to the "factory" for installation.

 

I was looking at that blueprint a few weeks ago hoping it was one of the earlier prints. I was curious if it mentioned the numbering of the barrels on the early Colt's. But I digress. Yes, the picture was changed. While I cannot point you to a document at the moment, I believe it has been well established that Colt's manufactured spare barrels and other parts for AOC over the years. It was 1937 when AOC finally got around to updating the blueprints to show the threading on the barrel boss for the circa 1932 Type 2 compensator. This tells me the prior barrels manufactured with the smooth boss worked fine for fitting both types of compensators. I would not expect to find the existing pin cove on the blueprint.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

AOC never referenced which type of compensator would be installed on a Thompson returned to the "factory" for installation.

 

I would not expect to find the existing pin cove on the blueprint.

 

Your new position is that AOC was still retro installing Type I Cuts on returned Colt TSMGs and orders for new in stock Colt TSMG 1921A's (coverted to 1921AC/NavyAC/1927AC) after the introduction of Type II? The majority of surviving Colt TSMG with a Cutts have the Type II. Why would AOC go the the expense of ordering these new improved Cutts with the logo if they did not intend to substitute them for the remaining stock of Type I for all post 1931 orders for a Cutts?

 

You wouldn't see the pin cove on a 1932 added blueprint of a threaded boss on a barrel that never had a cove cut just as you wouldn't on a 1921 barrel before the ring sight was added. To omit the existing cove designation on a blueprint used by machinists to instruct them on what to do with the now present cove on 1921 barrels doesn't make sense unless the barrels they were working on did not have a cove to contend with.

[TD.]

You may be right. That story has certainly been banded about the Thompson community for years without any substantiation or documentation. Me, I like to see the basis of these types of remarks before I drink the Kool-Aid. And I do not believe AOC would be replacing perfectly good barrels just to install a compensator. I also doubt many of their customers would want to pay the extra $25 for the compensator upgrade. While we are just supposing, and that is all we are doing, I also believe a large production run of barrels in the 1930s ten or more years after the last Colt's left the assembly line would stand out in some remarkable way as different from the original 21A barrels. Then there is that large pile of 21A take-off barrels that seem to have disappeared!

[colt21a]

i THINK George later sold them to Ruvels or Sarco or maybe R.J. Perry And the rest is history. Even pd's. did not have anything extra floating around for years.And when this stuff brought more value. and the police knew that things starting going home.And exchanged around Parts Barrels drum, mags, The Cook County,Will County.and Chicago P.D. and Joliet guns proved that out.most big town big city guns got played around with.The ones in Jerkwater U.S.A. not so much.When Roger traveled in the late 70's.Most town Sheriffs forgot they had a Thompson in some cabinet.And Coal Mines and Warehouse workers and rail roads had no idea.Heck the fed reserve guns got lost for awhile.

 

And Col. {Tribune} gun got lost for awhile also from the Trib. to the Mansion gun cabinet to the Library vault. Books can be written alone on those tales.{Maybe they have}

 

Long past History not many care about today. We get on subject of Oilers and current prices of pouches.

 

what was it again the $$$...............I'm all in now.

 

Still trying to find the crate of early AK-47'S buried in Ottawa.

and many a bring back thrown into Lake Michigan.

 

Somebody should be chasing those crates of Thompsons on Malta and Greece.unless they all went to the Syrian Rebels by now.The last Administration took care of much of that stuff.Ron. Colt dude

 

ASK me about the Nam cache. many M1s and 1928 model left there also in 1975, The N.V.A. LEND LEASE PROGRAM.

[lightguy]

The N.V.A. LEND LEASE PROGRAM.

Now thats some funny stuff !!

[Ron Mills]

Deleted Edited February 26, 2019 by Ron Mills