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Factory Marked "SAVAGE MODEL 1921" vs Mystery SAVAGE "1


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#1 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 07:21 PM

Tracie Hill included Savage #S-15082  in his 1996 book "Thompson: The American Legend" as a possible example of  a "Savage 1921 Overstamp in reverse Commercial MODEL."    But he was circumspect about whether #S-15082 was actually a real factory created example or whether some unknown entity stamped the "1" over the "8" in "1928."   

 

In his 2009  "TUTB",  Hill  seemed to no longer question the authenticity of this Savage  "overstamp" in reverse being a Savage factory alteration and included the  non serial number side photo of S-15082 which was a feature in a 1992 TCA  edition and appeared (with the serial number side facing away from view) in the TSMG collection of  the William B. Ruger Gallery at the National Firearms Museum.

 

Yet Frank Iannamico  has a cutaway  Savage MODEL 1921 (S-17038) showing the Colt 1921 receiver internals. The receiver appears to have been Savage/AOC factory marked 1921 not marked 1928 with the  "8" overstamped with a "1."    It also seems that S-17038 remains the only documented example of  a Savage MODEL 1921.

 

Threads regarding the mysterious SAVAGE MODEL 1928 over stamped 1.

 

2007
http://www.machinegu...n 1921 150282
2013
http://www.machinegu...282#entry123819

 

Attached File  001.JPG   86.94K   75 downloads

Attached File  002.JPG   69.94K   67 downloads


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#2 Frank Iannamico

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 12:42 PM

That Thompson s/n S-17039 is in the vault at the Navy Yard Museum. According to the curator at the time (he is no longer there) it was an FBI cut-away training weapon. I was working on another project and really wasn't paying much attention to Thompsons at the time, thus I didn't take a very close look at that Thompson. 

 

Several attempts to revisit the vault in the past few years have been futile.  


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#3 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:05 PM

That Thompson s/n S-17039 is in the vault at the Navy Yard Museum. According to the curator at the time (he is no longer there) it was an FBI cut-away training weapon. 

 Frank,

Thanks for explaining that S-17039 is not available for view to visitors of the museum.  Amazing that  S-17039 survived the F.B.I. purge of their TSMGs. That they used a TSMG with 1921  features as a training tool when all their Colt & Savage/AO TSMGs were 1928 models  is in keeping with the oddity of S-17039.   Considering the thousands of 1921 actuators/buffers/pilots/springs that were removed from the Colt MODEL 1921 for conversion to the 1928 overstamp/Navy  MODEL, you would expect to see more than two examples of the Savage 1921 or Savage 1928 overstamp "I"   with or without  the Colt 1921 parts in them.  It was never confirmed that S-15082 has the Colt 1921 parts as shown in the cutaway model S-17039. 

 

Do you know if  these WWII Savage models were primarily ordered by foreign entities and not U.S. law enforcement as these examples do not show up in the U.S. market of transferable TSMGs.  Have you seen any Savage/AOC  correspondence, sales literature, or advertising that introduces the availability of this version for sale to U.S. or foreign buyers? 


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#4 TD.

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:50 PM

Threads from 2007. I have been doing this way too long! 

 

I too found the picture of the cut-a-way S-17039 very interesting with what appears to be Model of 1921 markings on an early Savage Arms Thompson gun. While a careful in-person inspection is certainly warranted, I believe the number "1" in the year 1921 has been added. It appears where the receiver was cut, the metal was rounded off (removing the original number "8"), probably for cosmetic purposes. It also appears the number "2" was nearly ground off and re-stamped or deepened too. Others may have a different opinion.

 

There is no doubt Auto-Ordnance Corporation in 1940 was selling commercially the Thompson guns manufactured by Savage Arms. I believe more so than has been reported by past authors. However, I have never seen a documented Model of 1921 from Savage Arms. The first British order of 750 Thompson guns were for the Model of 1921AC. AOC "promptly informed the British that it had discontinued the production of the Model 1921AC." (Page 3, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story). In addition, the very rare 1940 Auto-Ordnance Catalog only lists the Model of 1928 Thompson gun. Certainly, a good supply of Colt's Model of 1921 actuators and buffer pilots would have been available. Perhaps a few original and documented Model of 1921 Savage Arms Thompson guns will surface someday. 

 

All good stuff!!!


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#5 Frank Iannamico

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

That Thompson s/n S-17039 is in the vault at the Navy Yard Museum. According to the curator at the time (he is no longer there) it was an FBI cut-away training weapon. 

 Frank,

 

 

Do you know if  these WWII Savage models were primarily ordered by foreign entities and not U.S. law enforcement as these examples do not show up in the U.S. market of transferable TSMGs.  Have you seen any Savage/AOC  correspondence, sales literature, or advertising that introduces the availability of this version for sale to U.S. or foreign buyers? 

 

I have no other info on that Thompson. There were several Thompsons in that vault, but I was working on a book project for the S&W 76 Swedish K and was not focused on Thompsons. There were several cut-away Thompsons that I just happened to photograph. I believe they are pictured in American Thunder III. 

 


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#6 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:14 PM

 There were several Thompsons in that vault, but I was working on a book project for the S&W 76 Swedish K and was not focused on Thompsons.. 

 

Do you still plan to publish this book and did you speak with Dwayne Charron during your research of the S&W? 


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#7 m249tink

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 08:29 AM

This and the other yellow and red cutaway from American Thunder III are no longer at the Navy Yard Museum. I have regular access to them, and can inspect and answer any questions about it in its current configuration. Let me know what questions you have.


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#8 TD.

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Posted 26 June 2020 - 10:41 AM

m2249tink,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. And thank you for your generous offer. I would like to know more about S-17039. First off, I assume there is an inventory file or reference for S-17039. If so, is there any reference or documentation or writings that establish S-17039 was obtained from the FBI. If so, and even if not, there is a good possibility S-17039 was purchased commercially by the FBI from Auto-Ordnance in 1940. Of course, any military markings would most likely negate this theory

 

I would like to see a close-up picture of the nomenclature to ascertain if the "21" has been added. This makes perfect sense if S-17039 was utilized by the FBI or another agency as a demonstration or training weapon to show the difference between the Models of 1921 and 1928 internal parts. If S-17039 can be field stripped, pictures of the internals would great, especially the bolt, Blish lock and actuator. I would also like to see a picture of the internals in the frame looking down from above into the frame (not disassembled).

 

An overview picture of the complete gun would give us an idea of what S-17039 looks like.

 

I would like to see pictures of the complete right, left and top of the receiver including the barrel and barrel collar (the part of the barrel that touches the receiver). I am looking for any markings, i.e., "S" on the left side, and an index mark (or not) on the right side.  

 

I am also interested in the frame, especially the serial number. Is it a matching numbered frame? I can tell from Frank's picture the fire control levers, magazine catch and butt stock are not original to S-17039.

 

Please take a picture of any thing you find interesting. I look forward to finding out more about S-17039! 


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#9 Frank Iannamico

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Posted 27 June 2020 - 07:43 AM

This and the other yellow and red cutaway from American Thunder III are no longer at the Navy Yard Museum. I have regular access to them, and can inspect and answer any questions about it in its current configuration. Let me know what questions you have.

Interesting that the Thompson is no longer at the Navy Yard, can you reveal where it is?

Looking forward to more info on that gun. As stated earlier in this thread, I was there working on the S&W76-Swedish-K book project when I just happen to photograph that Thompson, and paid little attention to it at the time. 

 

Frank


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#10 m249tink

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Posted 27 June 2020 - 05:51 PM

NSWC Crane.
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#11 TSMG28

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Posted 28 June 2020 - 12:00 AM

m249tink,

Do you know when and for what reason these two Thompsons were moved to NSWC Crane?

Thanks for sharing.
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#12 m249tink

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 06:37 PM

The photos that TD. requested. There are two sets of markings that I am interested to learn about. The first is what appears to be a Chinese/Japanese character on the receiver (right/front) ahead of the ejection port. The second are some markings on the barrel. I'm note sure what direction to read them. One direction, it looks like ######### TONS, and the other it might be SNO? #########. I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this gun.

 

It appears the two cutaways (and 50rd drum magazine) were transferred from the FBI in ~ the early 90s. The Interagency Transfer paperwork does say "1921." They were recently declared excess and shipped to Indiana.

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#13 TSMG28

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 07:23 PM

I can help you with most of the stampings on the receiver nose and barrel. The stamps on the top and right side of the nose plus those on the barrel are all British proofs added when the gun left Britain. The barrel stamps are an arm holding sword over NP, which is the London proof. The numbers are .45 .900 7 TONS. The first is the bore diameter. The second the the chamber depth. The 7 TONS is the proof load.

I do not recognize the stamps on the left nose, but they look like three Ones and maybe a Seven. I do not know the significance of these.

The barrel is clearly Savage, and the gun has the characteristic flat milled ejector. The controls on the trigger frame are obviously replacements from an M1A1. In fact, It appears that all of the internals of the trigger frame may be replacements.

Roger

Edited by TSMG28, 29 June 2020 - 07:51 PM.

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#14 TD.

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 09:04 PM

m249tink,

Thank you for the great photographs. S-17039 is not a Savage Commercial Thompson. It would be interesting to know how A-17039 found its way to the FBI, but that really does not impact the historical nature of this very early Savage Thompson. It is late and I want to study the pictures more before commenting on S-17039. Excess property and an interagency transfer. I understand completely - and have trained with those yellow (and red) guns! I also understand the usual disposition is destruction. Again, I believe this may be a very rare Thompson. I will explain tomorrow.  


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#15 TD.

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 10:13 AM

m249tink,

Thanks to your pictures, we can be sure S-17039 is not a Model of 1921 Savage. It is, or should I say was, a very typical Model of 1928 Thompson submachine gun manufactured by Savage Arms as part of the first contract with Auto-Ordnance Corporation, most likely in June 1940. The markings on the right and top of the receiver nose are British inspection markings, most likely at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield or by an Enfield Inspector. There are others on this forum who are much more knowledgeable on the World War II British proof and inspections markings. Perhaps, they will chime in if additional information is warranted. The British markings on the top of the barrel are exactly like TSMG28 described above and were applied long after WW II ended. The markings on the left receiver nose are unique to me, and probably applied by some military organization while S-17039 was in-service. These are not Savage or Auto-Ordnance markings. 

 

What makes S-17039 historic? It was manufactured by Savage Arms for the Auto-Ordnance Corporation as a Model of 1928A or without compensator. This was a very rare factory variation sold to the British Ministry of Supply (MoS) that ultimately led to the book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Those members with this book can turn to pages 17 through 21 and read about this attempt by the British military to lower the costs of the very expensive Thompson gun. There is actually a little more information on this variation in the 2013 Small Arms Review magazine story, 3rd Quarter, Vol. 17, No. 3. As most of the long time members of this forum know, it was this story, and the fantastic research by James West, that allowed me to write the magazine story and later the book. 

 

Those members who study the early Savage Thompson guns want to know how I know S-17039, a mixmaster of parts, has an original barrel? And front sight? Note the "S" marking on the left side barrel collar. Savage Arms manufactured most of the parts of the Thompson gun during the first contract of 10,000 guns. There were no assurances in early 1940 there would be another contract so subcontracting out the manufacture of specific parts, if it happened at all, was very minimal. But there is more. Note on the right side barrel collar the lack of an index mark. The lack of an index mark on Savage Thompsons was commonplace on the early guns. It was not until the 19,0000 to 20,000 serial number range a matching index mark started appearing on the barrel collar of the Savage manufactured Thompson guns. There is little doubt S-17039 was a Model of 1928A TSMG. 

 

Known examples of original Model of 1928A Thompson guns include S-16739 and S-17359, both in museums in Great Britain. Note how S-17039 fits right in the middle. 

 

A review of the markings of S-17039 shows the typical "GEG" or George E. Goll, inspector stamp on the left side upper receiver. Note the New York address and patent dates on the right side receiver. The New York address and 1922 patent date markings are similar to the late Colt's but not identical. Patent dates were changed to the commonly found patent numbers somewhere around the end of the first contract or 10,000 guns. The New York address continues on until the 80,000 serial number range - all fully detailed in GB-TTGS.

 

It does appear who ever converted S-17039 to the Model of 1921 variation added what appears to be the numeral 1 or vertical mark at the end of the factory applied "192" markings. I doubt any of the students that studied S-17039 in the past would have known the difference. 

 

I find it amazing the frame serial number matches the receiver serial number. None of the fire control levers or the magazine catch are original. However, the ejector, while defaced, does appear to be an early Savage milled ejector. The actuator is definitely Colt's as is the cut-away buffer pilot assembly. A picture of the rear of the bolt is needed to ascertain the pedigree. The Blish lock is from the Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport factory. The wood not original; note the late stamped sling swivels. Again, a real mixmaster. 

 

Aside from a picture of the rear of the bolt, I would like to see pictures of the front and rear of the front sight. I would not expect to find any manufacturer markings if S-17039 is like S-16739 and S-17359, above. This is not an M1 sight. The M1 sight did not become standard on Thompson guns until 1942. S-17039 was manufactured in 1940. I would also be curious if the front sight is pressed on or screwed on and pinned. Needless to say, the curators of the two Model of 1928As in Great Britain will never allow the front sight to be removed. Is that possible on this training gun? 

 

Again, thank you for these great pictures. Any additional pictures would be great.

 

The second training weapon referenced in Frank's American Thunder III is pictured on page 350. It appears to be a late model Thompson gun based on the smooth barrel and compensator. I am curious if a serial number is present. The right side receiver markings will most likely tell the pedigree. I know pictures of that cut-away would also be well received on this forum. 

     


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