Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

About Military Model of 1923

Thompson M1923

  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 allweaponsww2

allweaponsww2

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow
  • Interests:WW2 WEAPONS, Tommy gun

Posted 08 May 2020 - 08:37 AM

Hello everyone! Interested in information on the Thompson M1923. Who has any other photos? Maybe tell me a book about a detailed description?
As far as I know, M1923 was presented to the US Army, there was also M1923 for France and the mysterious M1923 for China.
 
Thanks
 
1) M1923 US Army
 
2RPTcyJTMI4.jpg
 
0JT-rfOka8E.jpg
EobA-oAoK4Y.jpg
 
6xNdUFYWxS4.jpg
 
 
 
2) M1923 French Variant 
 
lidyJ2AP0OQ.jpg
8b3kcN4QU-I.jpg
 
3) M1923 Chines Variant
 
VzmP6Rdk3WY.jpg
 
yAMOKLZ5tNQ.jpg
 
4) .45 Remington-Thompson
 
CqonkTfRMmY.jpg

Edited by allweaponsww2, 08 May 2020 - 09:40 AM.

  • 0

#2 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3503 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 May 2020 - 01:16 PM

allweaponsww2,

Great questions. May I suggest, The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill and An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, by me.

 

There is another Model of 1923 located in Petersburg, Russia at the Artillery Museum - NO 1605. I attempted to verify its existence and obtain pictures from the museum staff for inclusion in my book. The museum staff did verify its existence but said pictures would cost $500. The price was too high for niche books on machine guns. However, I did reference it and another Model of 1923 from France in my book. 

 

Since your in Russia, you have the ability to add to the knowledge of the few known Model of 1923s by visiting this museum and taking a few pictures. I do not know if it is on display but I have heard the museum has approximately 10 Colt's Thompson in inventory. Perhaps, you could find out what is at the museum. Pictures are a must, especially close-ups of the Model of 1923. 


  • 0

#3 allweaponsww2

allweaponsww2

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow
  • Interests:WW2 WEAPONS, Tommy gun

Posted 08 May 2020 - 03:33 PM

allweaponsww2,

Great questions. May I suggest, The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill and An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, by me.

 

There is another Model of 1923 located in Petersburg, Russia at the Artillery Museum - NO 1605. I attempted to verify its existence and obtain pictures from the museum staff for inclusion in my book. The museum staff did verify its existence but said pictures would cost $500. The price was too high for niche books on machine guns. However, I did reference it and another Model of 1923 from France in my book. 

 

Since your in Russia, you have the ability to add to the knowledge of the few known Model of 1923s by visiting this museum and taking a few pictures. I do not know if it is on display but I have heard the museum has approximately 10 Colt's Thompson in inventory. Perhaps, you could find out what is at the museum. Pictures are a must, especially close-ups of the Model of 1923. 

 

Thank you, these books will already be read by me inappropriately.
I’m also going to go to the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg, there is definitely something to see and photograph from a weapon. Now I know that there is a rare model of 1923 and I will make the photo the same.

  • 0

#4 reconbob

reconbob

    Technical Expert

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2596 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 May 2020 - 08:54 PM

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923
Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun
that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug
a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.
I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.
Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

Bob
  • 0

#5 allweaponsww2

allweaponsww2

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow
  • Interests:WW2 WEAPONS, Tommy gun

Posted 09 May 2020 - 06:14 AM

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923
Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun
that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug
a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.
I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.
Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

Bob

 

I hope everything is fine with Doug Richards, there is no information on this forum about how he is now ..
 
Interestingly, the new cartridge is more powerful than the .45 ACP, which actually equates the M1923 with assault rifles.
 
If you find out something else, write here.

  • 0

#6 Tiz

Tiz

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 370 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania
  • Interests:Skeet, Trap, Reloading, Shooting, and anything Full Auto

Posted 09 May 2020 - 01:50 PM

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923
Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun
that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug
a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.
I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.
Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

Bob

On my nest trip to visit my son and the grandkids at West Point I will check the  museum. 


  • 0

#7 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 15 May 2020 - 10:09 AM

Pictures of the Military Model Thompson in the Russian museum:

Attached File  Display 1923.jpg   172.32K   51 downloads

 

Attached File  M1923 Russia.jpg   217.09K   47 downloads

 

 

and one from the Royal Danish Arsenal museum:

 

Attached File  M1923.jpg   56.22K   44 downloads

 

Same example shown as French variant in post above.

 

Finally, another picture I have on file, possibly downloaded from this forum in the past, apparently showing a demonstration of a Military Model to the Peruvian President Augusto Leguia. 

Attached File  1923 Demo Leguia Pres Peru 1923.jpg   10.34K   40 downloads

 

Stay safe

Richard 


  • 1

#8 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3503 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 May 2020 - 10:33 AM

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum. 

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

Attached File  M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg   185.64K   39 downloads


  • 1

#9 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 16 May 2020 - 05:09 AM

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum. 

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

attachicon.gif M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg

 

Well spotted Tom,

I would agree with you, it does look like some form of deactivation process.


  • 0

#10 swat12

swat12

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 54 posts

Posted 17 May 2020 - 07:11 AM

Good day. I am also interested in the topic M1923. Are there any factory drawings for this model?
  • 0

#11 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 17 May 2020 - 09:30 AM

Good day. I am also interested in the topic M1923. Are there any factory drawings for this model?

 

There are no factory drawings that I am aware of, but the actual weapon was built on a 'Model of 1921' receiver, with just a change of barrel and furniture I believe.

 

In a copy of Pacific Arms Corporation catalogue from the 1920's that I have in my collection, I note they are actually promoting the Military Model, below the Model of 1921, see photo below:

 

Attached File  Pacific Arms ad.jpeg   175.16K   23 downloads

 

Stay safe

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 17 May 2020 - 09:58 AM.

  • 0

#12 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3503 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 May 2020 - 09:55 AM

There are no factory drawings available that I am aware of. If any drawing of the modifications exist, I would guess they would be part of the Oscar Payne Collection, now a part of the Thompson Reference Collection maintained by Tracie Hill. I cover this modification in my book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, and include several pages from the very rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List. The commonly found reproduction 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalog is a good starting point for the study of this Thompson variation. 


  • 0

#13 allweaponsww2

allweaponsww2

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow
  • Interests:WW2 WEAPONS, Tommy gun

Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:19 AM

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum. 

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

attachicon.gif M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg

 

Ok it was Russian magazine - Orugie 4/2002 (Оружие 2/2002). I have 12 pages - this is an article about Thompson. The author - Yegor Pulemetchikov. The article is large, I translated only the part about Model 1923 as a whole, nothing new and unusual:

 
"Following the M1921 was the Military Model of 1923. The barrel was smooth without radiator fins. The length of the barrel increased from 267 to 362 mm. A horizontal grip appeared instead of the vertical handle. Buttstock again (?) became removable. An oiler was located at the base of the gun butt.
Sometimes a light bipod was added. The weapon fired a new .45 Remington-Thompson cartridge. 435 rounds per minute, at a range of 650 yards.
This Gun was demonstrated personally to the President of Peru, Augusto Legua, but no orders were received."
 
wIH8PxV_ZvU.jpg
 
HyNStr9ogls.jpg
 
KTeOyfFmZ7I.jpg
 
swCNUnS8y1I.jpg
 
GBrx_9iyAys.jpg
 
j69qbb8I1wM.jpg
 
rOe2G9rMhzc.jpg
 
5_9Xduef4Lw.jpg
 
lL-cd44KPnU.jpg
 
xPe_PvgaZCM.jpg
 
hmVdvJLwErQ.jpg
 
vFkNB2FxHXY.jpg
 
1FIBE3zw1oA.jpg

  • 2

#14 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:07 AM

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 18 May 2020 - 12:44 PM.

  • 0

#15 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3503 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 May 2020 - 09:44 AM

Thank you allweaponsww2. I knew about this magazine and had a few pictures of the inside pages but not the page with the picture or information about the Model of 1923. I would guess this is NO 1605, the Model of 1923 at the Artillery Museum in Petersburg. And I thought a picture of the Model of 1923 in Russia had not been published! It would be great if you could visit the museum sometime and obtain some pictures of the left side receiver with the serial number and nomenclature markings. The museum sent me a postage stamp size picture of the gun from the left size with a price of $500 for larger pictures. While very difficult to view because of the small size, the Model of 1923 appears to show a lot of bluing wear on the left size. 

 

There has been a lot of misinformation published about the Thompson gun over the years. I have noted in the USA, magazines tend to re-publish the same information, whether correct or not, over and over again. While all stories have some value, especially if with new pictures, if you are serious about studying the history of the Thompson gun, I would search out the best current reference books on the subject.  


  • 1

#16 allweaponsww2

allweaponsww2

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moscow
  • Interests:WW2 WEAPONS, Tommy gun

Posted 18 May 2020 - 01:05 PM

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard

 

It says there were innovations for the Model of 1928 US Navy in 1928. An additional option, in the form of a tarpaulin pillow for comfortable shooting ...


Edited by allweaponsww2, 18 May 2020 - 01:07 PM.

  • 0

#17 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 18 May 2020 - 02:38 PM

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard

 

It says there were innovations for the Model of 1928 US Navy in 1928. An additional option, in the form of a tarpaulin pillow for comfortable shooting ...

 

Thank you for that translation.


  • 0

#18 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 May 2020 - 08:41 AM

Today, I have just received a magazine from France, which has an extensive section on the Thompson, all models covered in 50+ pages, including a page on the M1923.

 

Attached File  img016.jpg   238.16K   13 downloads  Attached File  img017 (2).jpg   228.83K   18 downloads

 

This example, S/N 3075, is still in France, part of the collection of the technical section of the French Army, from one of the pictures you can see that markings on the military model were not modified or stamped over, as the US Navy Model of 1928 and the Model of 1927 were.

 

Referring to Gordon Herigstad's 'Colt Thompson Serials Numbers and histories', I find 3075 listed as a Model of 1922, not a model of 1923. The entry adds that the only other known Model of 1922, S/N 3079, is located at the West Point Army academy Museum. However, on page 12, Gordon contradicts himself stating that another Model of 1922 is located at the Artillery Museum in St Petersburg, S/N 1605.

 

This reminds me that I have read that the Military Model was never referred to as Model 1922 or 1923 in any AOC literature, and that these designations have been adopted by authors and collectors over the years, please correct me if I am wrong. As I understand it, the Military Model was like the Model of 1919, an evolution of design, hence the different variations, as AOC tried to find a market for the stock of Model of 1921's stored in Hartford, Connecticut. 

 

Stay safe

Richard


  • 1

#19 TD.

TD.

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 3503 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 May 2020 - 09:42 AM

The short lived "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model" were featured in what is referred to by collectors as the 1923 catalog because it is titled on the inside cover,  "Thompson Guns, Models 1291 - 1923." And features the "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model." Original 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalogs are extremely rare. There is also an extremely rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List that features both of these models but the name "Military Model" has been changed to "Thompson Gun with Bipod." All of this experimentation was designed to convert thousands of Thompson guns in stock to a saleable product. In conjunction with the experimentation by Auto-Ordnance in modifying the Model of 1921 Thompson guns was the introduction of the new .45 caliber Remington-Thompson cartridge. I have a chapter on the Model of 1923 Thompson gun in my newest book. 

 

The term Model of 1922 was first used by Doug Richardson in an attempt to explain the differences between the surviving modified guns made by Auto-Ordnance. Gordon Herigstad picked up the nomenclature from Doug and used it in his series of books, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. There is no Model of 1922 mentioned anywhere in known AOC literature. However, those with a copy of The Ultimate Thompson Book can turn to page 821 and see the "Model F of 1922."   


  • 0

#20 rpbcps

rpbcps

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 804 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 May 2020 - 11:02 AM

The short lived "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model" were featured in what is referred to by collectors as the 1923 catalog because it is titled on the inside cover,  "Thompson Guns, Models 1291 - 1923." And features the "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model." Original 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalogs are extremely rare. There is also an extremely rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List that features both of these models but the name "Military Model" has been changed to "Thompson Gun with Bipod." All of this experimentation was designed to convert thousands of Thompson guns in stock to a saleable product. In conjunction with the experimentation by Auto-Ordnance in modifying the Model of 1921 Thompson guns was the introduction of the new .45 caliber Remington-Thompson cartridge. I have a chapter on the Model of 1923 Thompson gun in my newest book. 

 

The term Model of 1922 was first used by Doug Richardson in an attempt to explain the differences between the surviving modified guns made by Auto-Ordnance. Gordon Herigstad picked up the nomenclature from Doug and used it in his series of books, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. There is no Model of 1922 mentioned anywhere in known AOC literature. However, those with a copy of The Ultimate Thompson Book can turn to page 821 and see the "Model F of 1922."   

 

Tom,

Thank you for that timely explanation.

 

Co-incidentally I have just been browsing the chapters on the Model of 1923 in both your 'Amateurs Guide to the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun and also 'Tracie's The Ultimate Thompson book'. I note that both the 'Gazette des Armes' article and 'TUTB', state that S/N 3075 was chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading rifle cartridge.

 

On another point, I note in the 'TUTB', Tracie has identified the US 'Soldier' posing with Model of 1923 in the fist photo in this topic, George E Goll.

 

Stay safe

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 22 May 2020 - 11:11 AM.

  • 0