Multi-Shot .38 Super

[Colt Chopper]

Was at a gun show this weekend and ran across this Multi-Shot mag and grips.

 

Couldn't afford the price the gentleman was asking, but very neat to see one in person, he did not have the stock.

[jl7422]

Out of curiosity-- what was the asking price??

[Colt Chopper]

He started at $1500. on Saturday, dropped to $1250. on Sunday.

 

Just couldn't bring myself to it, especially with no stock.

[OCM]

Very suspicious.

Edited June 11, 2016 by OCM

[Colt Chopper]

From a previous thread "Gun Smith to the Outlaws"

 

 

 

[OCM]

Another mystery unveiling maybe. We had a long post on this, I think in the Nelson section. I'm blowing up a fairly good photo I have of it.

[HANS]

Yes, we've discussed this previously. During the discussion, I had first claimed that the Dillinger machine pistol had Monarch grip panels, then reversed my statement thinking that the marks came from the mounting screws added by the FBI, but now have definite proof that it did, in fact, have Monarch grip panels (but not the stock) and a Monarch magazine (or at least the follower and spring). The Monarch grips are clearly visible on a close-up that I've graciously received from Kevin Williams (I wish I had a better one of the entire Dilinger display), and the Monarch magazine (or components) is mentioned in the FBI files (#62-29777-877).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

I have to agree, we can see the two Monarch holes, a FBI mounting screw ( top center) and ( I think) in the middle left over glue from the previous display where they glued the information about the gun, right on the gun.

 

Back to the original question, was this an Lebman conversion ? I see no reason why it isn't. Information lost in time as I've said before. Is this the mystery Van Meter Lebman ?

 

 

OCM

Edited June 11, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

Back to the original question, was this an Lebman conversion ? I see no reason why it isn't. Information lost in time as I've said before. Is this the mystery Van Meter Lebman ?

 

This is a fairly clear photo, you can see the diamond shape of the Monarch grip, on the bottom if you blow it up just to distortion.

 

That photo is the one that is circulating all over the net and also found in most books, such as Swearengen's THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHOTGUNS. It is unfortunately not clear enough.

 

I concurr that it is most likely a Lebman conversion (who else would even be in the running? It wasn't Lester Gillis, as Elmer claimed in SHOTS FIRED IN ANGER). I'm still trying to track down the OTHER four or five machine pistols of this type, which apparently all are or were in the FBI collection. I tried contacting the FBI, but they weren't much help. The historian didn't find anything in the files (not even what I had already found on my own) and they wouldn't let me talk to a guy in the reference collection, who might have better insight ...

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

Is this the mystery Van Meter Lebman ?

 

Ah, I missed this. No, the one built for (but not delivered to) Van Meter was a .45 (M1911), while this is a .38 (Super .38). Van Meter's also still lacked the comp, the frontgrip was homemade and looked less like the TSMG grip, and it didn't have Monarch grips or even an extended magazine. The one shown is almost certainly the .38 found in Dillinger's Lincoln Court apartment on 31-MAR-1934. It not only has all the items mentioned in the FBI files, it also looks exactly like the one pictured on period photos.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Wish we could go back in time- This may be a mess of unrelated Dillinger equipment, the Colt 380 on display was actually the one ( as I remember ) that was manufactured in 1935 and belonged to Volney Davis. The real one found more recently. ( go to Larry Wack's site)

Yes I do know this is a very common picture but it's a clear one that when blown up you can " mostly" see it's a Monarch grip, at least for my eyes.

Is that the Auburn Thompson or ? Don't know.

At least they bill it as the Dillinger " gang's" weapons, that can go anywhere I guess. Maybe Ma Barker ?

 

Good to know someone is current on the JD FBI files, helps all of us- thanks. Huge file. I certainly appreciated it. Hours & hours of staring into the computer, can't do that anymore- To old. Go cross-eyed. I only research for fun, not a writer searching for information.

 

OCM

[OCM]

Little story-

At one time another outlaw historian that I knew, had researched all the Dillinger videos that existed in the Smithsonian. Had a pretty good list of stuff. Turns out someone in France had bought the rights to all the video material. The cost for dups was over 700 clams. This was I think in the mid 70s, wasn't in my bank account, more for documentary makers.

Also, a lot of the JD material had actual photos in the reference library- HOWEVER, in the day you could just check out the reference books and take them to a table I guess. This finally stopped when a lot of the photos were missing. Same with historical newspapers.

Same with the Tucson Dillinger files...gone. Lot of searching for things that don't exist anymore.

 

OCM

[HANS]

Little story-

At one time another outlaw historian that I knew, had researched all the Dillinger videos that existed in the Smithsonian. Had a pretty good list of stuff. Turns out someone in France had bought the rights to all the video material. The cost for dups was over 700 clams. This was I think in the mid 70s, wasn't in my bank account, more for documentary makers.

Also, a lot of the JD material had actual photos in the reference library- HOWEVER, in the day you could just check out the reference books and take them to a table I guess. This finally stopped when a lot of the photos were missing. Same with historical newspapers.

Same with the Tucson Dillinger files...gone. Lot of searching for things that don't exist anymore.

 

Interesting detail, thanks. Unfortunately I have to do with the Dillinger files that the FBI published electronically in The Vault, as I'm over 6,700 klicks away. Those do include some photos. They are very blurry due to the age and scanning process, but I was able to solve one question we'd been discussing earlier (the question of the 13 "20 round clips" found in Van Meter's car). Unfortunately, the files in The Vault aren't complete, an entire section is missing as is everything AFTER Dillinger's death.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Yes, I've seen the St Paul FBI Files, what did you solve ?? Photos are all blurry, but a keen eye can pick stuff up. You can't publish them in an article, or I wouldn't anyway.

Can you send the one question you solved- I thought you were talking about Winchester 351 magazines ? Originally.

Appreciate your research.

 

OCM

[HANS]

Yes, I've seen the St Paul FBI Files, what did you solve ?? Photos are all blurry, but a keen eye can pick stuff up. You can't publish them in an article, or I wouldn't anyway.

Can you send the one question you solved- I thought you were talking about Winchester 351 magazines ? Originally.

Appreciate your research.

 

You remember that agent Nicholson mentioned "13 clips [sic] (20 shell capacity)" which were found in Van Meter's car. Since there are no known 20-round magazines for the Winchester Model 07 rifle with which these were found, the question arose what he meant. Was this a typo for 10-round capacity? Were these actually 20-round Type XX Thompson magazines? Did someone produce 20-round magazines for the Winchester after all? We have discussed this once or twice on this very board, I think in the Lebman thread. Anyway, the Dillinger files (#62-29777) in The Vault include a photo of the seized kit. While it is only a scan, you can very clearly distinguish one 20-round Thompson magazine, one 100-round Thompson drum, and at least 10 10-round Winchester magazines. It's still unclear whether it is a typo or NIcholson just didn't identify the magazines correctly, but to my mind this solves this small puzzle to the extent that at least we know what they found.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

I thought there was discussion if they were extended magazines for the Winchester ( Lebman?) 351 gun and we summarized they were the Thompson XX Box magazines.

As you know, the FBI files sometimes are written in a hurried fashion and are prone to mistakes, or sometimes I feel just not important enough to go into great detail that us researchers demand today. I guess you might say I was policing the stories, used to think that was my outlaw job ! Haaaa.

So many authors write , taking the FBI/Police information at face value, thus causing incorrect information to the general public. I used to take a great issue with that and work diligently to correct the errors, for my sake , and a few other outlaw researchers.

Now I don't bother anymore, just to old to mess with it. Probably doing the same as the mis-informed authors now, but most don't really care, always fun stories that I like sharing. ( best I can )

 

BTW- Not pointing fingers at anyone, just saying..........

 

OCM

Edited June 17, 2016 by OCM

[OCM]

Some interesting information that my pal ( King of FBI research) Larry Wack sent me & CJL concerning the St Paul Lebman Colt mini-

I'll be brief here, not good typing day on the thumbs.

 

The # 13583 Colt-Lebman 38 Super conversion that was left behind by Dillinger, after the St Paul shoot-out was originally shipped by Colt, to Baker, Hamilton and Pacific Company , Jan 13, 1932, 700 Seventh St , San Francisco, CA. A good researcher will think, San Francisco and Baby Face Nelson. Hmmm. Dillinger, Nelson, Lebman, St Paul.....all connected.

Also the FBI discovered that the 22 rd magazines were mostly made of Colt manufacturing, but Colt Manufacturing had also sold some of the magazine springs to the Monarch Company in California.

 

CJL brought up the thought that Mr. Lebman more then likely, was sourcing out parts for his San Antonio " outlaw" gun store- Good point, I agree.

 

Never surprises me how stuff like this pops up all the time. Just more pieces of our American history.

 

OCM

 

Interesting connections these bad guys had and FAST.

[HANS]

Some interesting information that my pal ( King of FBI research) Larry Wack sent me & CJL concerning the St Paul Lebman Colt mini-

I'll be brief here, not good typing day on the thumbs.

 

The # 13583 Colt-Lebman 38 Super conversion that was left behind by Dillinger, after the St Paul shoot-out was originally shipped by Colt, to Baker, Hamilton and Pacific Company , Jan 13, 1932, 700 Seventh St , San Francisco, CA. A good researcher will think, San Francisco and Baby Face Nelson. Hmmm. Dillinger, Nelson, Lebman, St Paul.....all connected.

Also the FBI discovered that the 22 rd magazines were mostly made of Colt manufacturing, but Colt Manufacturing had also sold some of the magazine springs to the Monarch Company in California.

 

CJL brought up the thought that Mr. Lebman more then likely, was sourcing out parts for his San Antonio " outlaw" gun store- Good point, I agree.

 

 

That's in the FBI files, yes. It's also in the article draft I sent you for review a couple months ago

 

There's more: Baker, Hamilton and Pacific passed the pistol to a company called Western Arms, which was out of business by 1934 so they couldn't follow up. Interestingly, Herigstad found who owned Western Arms (supposedly from the FBI files, but he must have had access to the unredacted version, since the digital copies in The Vault don't show them but have some blacked out portions), a chap called Victor Danials. Ring a bell? During the 1920s, there was a guy called Vincent Danials (real name Vincenzo Danialski) who embezzled AO out of a dozen Thompsons and then sold them to gangsters in Chicago. This all came to light in 1929 in wake of the St. Valentine's Massacre. Want to bet that the man relocated after that and only slightly changed his alias? To California, say? And that he hadn't learned his lesson and continued to deal guns to shady characters?

 

I'm actually leaning towards the theory that Gillis brought the gun with him to Lebman, since the St. Paul gun was the only one of all the different Lebman conversions that had Monarch components. One, Gillis spent considerable time in California, Lebman didn't. It's more likely that Gillis saw or heard of the Monarch kit than Lebman. Two, we know that Lebman built at least one of his conversions on a pistol supplied to him (the Van Meter gun). It is not that unlikely to assume that this was his standard procedure. He doesn't seem to have stocked many guns at any one time (his primary metier was leather work), instead we know that he acquired guns elsewhere whenever he had a firm order from a client.

 

Not that it couldn't have been otherwise, of course. Lebman might well have acquired the Monarch components himself in California.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited June 24, 2016 by HANS

[OCM]

I think we assumed that Nelson had the California connection, at least I did, Monarch a California Company to, etc. etc .

 

My thing was how did they all make the connections. We know that Lebman had shipped guns to St Paul, where did JD hook up . Same with his trip to Tucson, would of gone right thru Fort Worth , Texas, on a normal 1934 highway run- Toss in Wolf & Klar. However that's pure speculation, without side trips and all. However the 38 Super he had on him when arrested in Tucson, had shipped to Wolf & Klar by Colt two months prior. Possibly the lost Colt 45 auto too ? I'm not asking just wondering.

 

 

OCM

Edited June 24, 2016 by OCM

[Colt Chopper]

Jl7422, I sent you a PM to contact me.

[Colt Chopper]

Jl7422, I sent you a PM to contact me.