Savage 1921

[johnsonlmg41]

In the picture I can see the whole 1928 under the 1921, not just the "8". I guess experts will have to pick whether this is a 1921 overstamp or 1928 understamp? I'm sure you guys study the fonts, stamp depths, etc. as to whether it's a "factory" job, or just a gunsmith special?

[BRMCII]

 

The "EL OF 1921"has clearly been over stamped on the Savage stamping. The edges of the original "8" can be seen.Obviously different font and deeper stamp impression.

Machine marks, finish and the serial number need improvement, too for a decent Colt copy.......

I've never seen a Thompson forgery attempt like this before and consider it to be a true "curio and relic" in that catagory. Very interesting.

I do not believe this is necessarily a Thompson forgery attempt. More information is needed, in my opinion, before that conclusion should be reached. This could be interpreted as a Savage 1921 Overstamp if it was marked in this manner from Savage. We need an FOIA document to further vet this Thompson.

 

David Albert

Well, regardless of who did it, it is a "forgery" in my view. It is designed to pass as a representation of a Colt but it is false. Savage had no right to do that. Colt overstamped their own product.

Anyway, it seems to me that if the gun was purposefully manufactured with the idea of imitating a Colt, then it makes far more sense just to engrave the appropriate "MODEL OF 1921" on the side of the receiver during manufacture instead of stamping obvious false overstamped composite fonts. If I ordered such a variation from Savage and they sent me that result I'd be pissed. It's a mess!!

Someone mentioned above that they had documentation on this gun aside from TD's post, so maybe that will surface.......

Edited June 24, 2022 by BRMCII

[Motorcar]

It's not a "forgery" if Auto Ordnance sold it that way as a special order. Just the same as the US NAVY overstamps were slowed down on rate of fire we don't consider them to be a "gunsmith special" and less than a quality Thompson. So some agency, most likely, went to A/O and requested a certain number of Thompsons with comps, detatchable stocks, and....oh yes, can you get us a higher rate of fire? Sure we can, how many do you need? The model 1921 is sold out but we can produce a limited number for you by making an actuator and spring change.

 

This is a very plausible and most likely scenario.

 

Dan, that's awesome you live in a community like that, gives me hope for America. I am also jealous of those Hillman drawers, my local store doesn't have near that!

[mohawk64]

I don't remember as well as I should. But I thought I had heard that savage made a few 1921.

[Ron Mills]

I don't remember as well as I should. But I thought I had heard that savage made a few 1921.

Me too. Just having trouble pinning that memory/reference down in my aging brain. Does seem like I heard or read it somewhere.

[Countryboy77]

Yea if Savage was Asked by Auto Ordnance to produce a 1921 model thats not a forgery.All tge serial numbers seem to be before Auto ordnance had tgeir own production plant.Now if the Colt in name manufacturer markings were done then that could be a forgery.Ss ot sets its a non Colt thompson 1921

[Countryboy77]

Definately a story to be had there Edited June 24, 2022 by Countryboy77

[BRMCII]

Well, it's an obvious, deliberate attempt to create a replica of a Colt 1921, so we'll just have to disagree. Because they didn't stamp 'Colt' on it doesn't change the fact the intention was to creat a fake 1921 Colt because that model held some distinction and value for someone.

Colt's overstamp Navy was a specific production ID of a different model of a Colt product so has no bearing on this in my opinion.

If AOC/Savage didn't do this, is it still not a fake?

In the seventies when I bought several Colt's, that addition to a Savage would have reduced it's value and been an object of amused criticism. Now it's an enhancement to the value of the Savage.

More info will be very interesting.

[Frank Iannamico]

Maybe this has been asked before...

 

But what model is listed on the form?

[dalbert]

Well, regardless of who did it, it is a "forgery" in my view. It is designed to pass as a representation of a Colt but it is false. Savage had no right to do that. Colt overstamped their own product.

Anyway, it seems to me that if the gun was purposefully manufactured with the idea of imitating a Colt, then it makes far more sense just to engrave the appropriate "MODEL OF 1921" on the side of the receiver during manufacture instead of stamping obvious false overstamped composite fonts. If I ordered such a variation from Savage and they sent me that result I'd be pissed. It's a mess!!

Someone mentioned above that they had documentation on this gun aside from TD's post, so maybe that will surface.......

 

BRMCII,

 

While I respect your assessment, I'll offer some facts and assertions involving Colt Thompsons and Auto-Ordnance that tend to be inconvenient to it. I say this while still asserting that more information is needed about this "1921 Savage" Thompson to decide whether it's a forgery. It is not automatically a forgery by virtue of its markings, which may have been legitimately applied by the authority of its maker, whether contractually applied (Savage), or directly applied (Auto-Ordnance).

• Colt was a contractor (Fact)
• Auto-Ordnance contracted Colt to produce the Model of 1921 Thompson (Fact)
• The Thompson did not sell well in the 1920's, and Auto-Ordnance faced financial troubles (Fact)
• Auto-Ordnance therefore marketed the remaining Thompsons they had contracted Colt to produce through other means, and featuring other markings (Fact)
• Such means included overstamping Model of 1921’s with an “8,” resulting in their being marked as “Model of 1928” Thompsons (Colt did not "overstamp their own product," they overstamped a product they had been contracted to produce by Auto-Ordnance) (Fact)
• These were Auto-Ordnance decisions, because they owned the product (Even though it was manufactured by Colt for them) (Fact)
• The same logic applies to Savage, and could apply under any circumstance where Auto-Ordnance desired a Thompson to be sold in a different configuration, such as "Model of 1921" (Fact)
• If AO had a Savage produced Thompson remarked as "Model of 1921," it was not necessarily to "imitate a Colt" - The Model of 1921 was an Auto-Ordnance model designation that referred to its part configuration, and there were certainly plenty of 1921 parts available from Colt manufactured Thompsons that had been converted to Model of 1928 Thompsons in earlier years (I believe the Savage manufactured Thompson in question has a Colt actuator) (Part fact, Part assertion)
• We need FOIA documents to potentially know how and when the markings were applied (Fact)
• Your assertion that "you'd be pissed" if you ordered such a variation from Savage, and received this example has the benefit of decades of hindsight - Few would likely have known or cared about the difference in 1940 (Assertion)

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[TSMGguy]

No expert here, but this looks like typical Savage roll marking to me. I don't think it's an attempt to deceive as Colt's is not mentioned. There's no way to tell whether the actuator is original to the gun or not. In the absence of original production records on the gun, it'll simply remain a curiosity on which opinions will vary.

 

If a gun is properly registered, there can be no valid reason for obscuring the serial number.

[Motorcar]

Well put David, my simplified version didn't sit well...maybe your factual one will.

[Merry Ploughboy]

Reminds me of the tag line in an old ad Colt's used to run in their gun magazine AR-15 ads:

 

"If it's not a Colt, it's a copy."

[Countryboy77]

Its an Auto Ordnance Model of 1921.Colt was the first contractor and then Savage.Its not a Colt forgery.Its whats on the paperwork.Looks like a legitimate hens tooth.I think David said it right it was just the long way to the same conclusion Edited June 26, 2022 by Countryboy77

[deerslayer]

Well, this went places I never thought it would, but it's been good discussion. Not my gun to sell or advertise so I left out all the numbers though this unique gun will probably be fully known at some point we can all look forward to.

 

Since I have built (well, finished Doug and Bob 80 percent versions) Thompson receivers it's my thought that if I have stuck a nice light original actuator into a receiver I have made a 1921. If I stick a heavy secondary navy designed actuator in the gun I've made a 1928. Either way I haven't made a Colt or a Savage or called it such. I've made a model designation reflecting the internal parts and on the receiver and it's paperwork the appropriate model number is so applied. BTW I own a Remington model 12 and a Winchester model 12. Neither gun pretends to be the other. It's just a model number.