M3 Serial Number Question

[First Sergeant]

Hi guys. Participated in a Valentine's Day shoot at my local range where member's can shoot various machineguns. We brought out a 28A1 Thompson a, M16, Reising etc. My buddy brought his dept's M3 greasegun. It was a Guidelamp with no modification over the mag release. I found it interesting that hte guns serial number was two digit and had an "X" prefix. Any thoughts? No idea if it's tranferable. Thanks in advance....Chuck Edited February 18, 2010 by First Sergeant

[jim c 351]

Hi guys. Participated in a Valentine's Day shoot at my local range where member's can shoot various machineguns. We brought out a 28A1 Thompson a, M16, Reising etc. My buddy brought his dept's M3 greasegun. It was a Guidelamp with no modification over the mag release. I found it interesting that hte guns serial number was two digit and had an "X" prefix. Any thoughts? No idea if it's tranferable. Thanks in advance....Chuck

 

The only thought that comes to mind is someone ground the original number off the gun and the ATF asssigned a new serial number. Were their any signs of grinding?

Where in Ohio is your club located?

Are shoots open to non members?

Jim C

[emmagee1917]

If a weapon was stolen , the serial number removed , then recovered and turned over to the Army , they would re-number it with an X- number. If needed , it would have been sent in and refinished at an arsonal , so you may have to look hard to see any grinding as they would have removed most signs of it then.

Chris

[First Sergeant]

Thanks for the info guys but I was unable to find any signs of milling, grinding etc. I recall an M2 that I ran across that had an X prefix and determined it was a "give away" gun to prominant members of the company (Inland)for their dedication/hard work/retirment. The M2 only had semi parts but was marked M2. Trouble if you ask me, and the ATF I'm sure.

 

If Inland didn't give it away, I'm in the Dayton area and the club (indoor only) only allows members to participate at these shoots. Very few of which are allowed to shoot full-auto.

 

I'll look closer for any marks but I did find it curious that there was a 2 or 3 number sapce between the "X" and the serial number. Chuck

[GUNGUY45]

If you could possibly take a few photos it would be great.

I wouldn't think that a PD would have any issues with that.

 

Pete A.

[jim c 351]

Thanks for the info guys but I was unable to find any signs of milling, grinding etc. I recall an M2 that I ran across that had an X prefix and determined it was a "give away" gun to prominant members of the company (Inland)for their dedication/hard work/retirment. The M2 only had semi parts but was marked M2. Trouble if you ask me, and the ATF I'm sure.

 

If Inland didn't give it away, I'm in the Dayton area and the club (indoor only) only allows members to participate at these shoots. Very few of which are allowed to shoot full-auto.

 

I'll look closer for any marks but I did find it curious that there was a 2 or 3 number sapce between the "X" and the serial number. Chuck

 

Interesting that you mentioned the X prefix carbine, but this is different from the M3.

Like you said Inland gave hundreds of carbines away to prominent people every year. The first group were numbered with a XA before a 2 didget number. Then XB--XC--XD--XE--XF.

Somewhere around XD, Inland had changed the stamping die from M1 to M2. SO-- when they made a carbine number XD35 it was stamped with the only stamp in the stamping machine, which was M2.

In 1945 the thing that determined what constituted a machine gun was the way it fired, not the way it was marked, so this was a perfectly legal gun. At some later date, probably 1968, the Feds passed an edict that declaired that a gun could be a machinegun by the way it was marked , no matter how it fired, thus creating criminals where none existed.

This was a problem created by the Feds, out of ignorance, and it should be corrected by the Feds.

These carbines should be exempt from the M2 edict.

Thanks for bringing up.

Jim C

[First Sergeant]

Jim,

 

Thanks for the additional info on the prefix letters on the carbines. I had no idea there were such a variety of prefix's. I had the M2 come into my office about 2 or 3 yrs ago (thought I wrote about it on the board) and it was mint! Doubt that it had ever been fired. Took a few poor quality pictures of it and gave it back with the typical advise of what could be done with it; museum, PD, destroy the reciever or turn in to ATF. At the time I recall an effort to try to get M2 carbines in particular that were marked as such and never fitted withthe full-auto parts exempt. Never heard any more on that effort nor have I asked about the fate of the M2. good or bad, I really don't want to know. I'm sure I could get a couple photos of it, especially the serial number area. Chuck

[First Sergeant]

Here's a pic of the serial number. Doesn't look like any grinding to me? What say the experts? Chuck

 

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/First...t/100_3699a.jpg

Edited February 22, 2010 by First Sergeant

[emmagee1917]

Well , the grinding I was refering to would have been done by the person (s) who stole it. I was saying that if it went back to be rebuilt , those marks would have been cleaned up. I do not see any sign of a number being removed. No removed or displaced metal at all. It is a Guidelamp , and I would have thought all the markings would have been rolled at the same time. The best guess I can think of , and this is only a guess , is that spare recievers might have been sent to the rebuild facilities after the runs were done that were not serial numbered . As they were needed to repair / make new ones , they were pulled and stamped with a serial number. Indeed , a rare and interesting piece. The owner might run a FOIA check and see if any more info can be learned.

Chris

[GUNGUY45]

It does look handstamped, it could very well be made from "spare" reciever halves like emmagee1917 supposes.

Thanks for the photo,

 

Pete A.

[jim c 351]

All of a sudden, out of nowhere, I feel the urge to make another wild ass guess.

Guess #1 The receiver was stolen out of the Guide lAMP factory before it was serial numbered. This was commonly known as a lunch box special.

 

Guess #2. The gun was pulled off the line and hung on the factory wall to show visitors a sample of thier war effort.

 

The gun is also missing the ordnance acceptance mark. So--- the US gov't never took possession of the gun.

It probably received the ATF serial number some years later.

Wouldn't shock me to learn a local police dept was given the gun when the factory closed.

Jim C

PS I doubt if repacement receivers were made.

Edited February 22, 2010 by jim c 351

[First Sergeant]

In looking at the remainder of the gun I was unable to locate any other markings other than what is on the left side of the mag well. Not being that familiar with markings on an M3, should there be other markings elsewhere?

 

SUB-MACHINEGUN

CAL 45 M3

 

GUIDELAMP

 

U S NO

 

X 25

 

Are the only markings on it, all on the left side of the magwell. Chuck

[ODS9091]

I will check mine tonight when I get home from work, unless someone else chimes in before then, but I believe that is correct. That is all the markings on the receiver.

[jim c 351]

In looking at the remainder of the gun I was unable to locate any other markings other than what is on the left side of the mag well. Not being that familiar with markings on an M3, should there be other markings elsewhere?

 

SUB-MACHINEGUN

CAL 45 M3

 

GUIDELAMP

 

U S NO

 

X 25

 

Are the only markings on it, all on the left side of the magwell. Chuck

 

Chuck,

In addition to what you show above , the M3 should also have a Ordnance acceptance stamp. This stamp looks like a wheel with crossed cannons. This shows that the gun passed inspection and was accepted by the gov't.

This stamp should be located either above the US NO stamp or below the serial number , depending on the date of manufacture.

When M1928A1 TSMG went to the US Army they had such a stamp. When Savage or Auto Ordnance pulled a gun off the line to sell to a police dept they ground off the US stamp and the A1 stamp. The gun was then stamped with "AC" where the A1 had previously been. Such a TSMG would not Have the Ordnance stamp.

Its possible that this applies to your M3.

Jim C

[First Sergeant]

Jim,

 

No ordinance stamp on this one at all. My 1928A1 has the acceptance markings but the 1928AC oververstamp does not. I'm pretty convinced this gun never made it to the military but could have been an "extra" laying around at the end of production and just given to the PD.

 

30+ years ago my dept was offered M3's to T&E but gave them back. I was able to aquire the extra mags, still in wrap w/dust covers, that were left behind. Got them for my Mac but never modified them and they remain wrapped. Chuck

[jim c 351]

Jim,

 

No ordinance stamp on this one at all. My 1928A1 has the acceptance markings but the 1928AC oververstamp does not. I'm pretty convinced this gun never made it to the military but could have been an "extra" laying around at the end of production and just given to the PD.

 

30+ years ago my dept was offered M3's to T&E but gave them back. I was able to aquire the extra mags, still in wrap w/dust covers, that were left behind. Got them for my Mac but never modified them and they remain wrapped. Chuck

Is the M3 in question one of those guns? If not , how was it aquired? Have you found any papers on it?

Jim

[First Sergeant]

I was able to learn a bit more about this M3. Apparently it was indeed given to the PD but not by Guidelamp, but instead by a very prominant GM executive. Hence no acceptance markings and the 'give away' serial number. No paperwork that I am aware of and it is not transferable. Chuck

[jim c 351]

I was able to learn a bit more about this M3. Apparently it was indeed given to the PD but not by Guidelamp, but instead by a very prominant GM executive. Hence no acceptance markings and the 'give away' serial number. No paperwork that I am aware of and it is not transferable. Chuck

 

Chuck,

It looks like this case is closed, except----you say its not transferable --but no papers. If no papers then how can we be sure its not transferable?

If you are friends with the chief ask for permission to call ATF in WV and see if they have it on record. There could be a remote chance its on a form 5 and someday you might be the proud owner.

Jim C