Upcoming R.I.A. Auction 5 NFA Thompson's (1 Experimental)

[azboater]

Premiere Firearms Auction - April 29 - May 1, 2016

 

Overall Page Link: http://www.rockislandauction.com/search/aid/67 (Many other Thompson Items)

Extremely Rare Early Production Colt Model 1921A Class III/NFA Fully Automatic Thompson Submachine Gun Serial Number 598

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/67/lid/860

 

Extremely Rare World War II Fully Automatic Class III/NFA Auto-Ordnance/Thompson Experimental Submachine Gun Serial Number "T2"

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/67/lid/1668

 

Excellent Colt Model 1921/1928 U.S. Navy Over Stamp Thompson Submachine Gun with Case, Drum and Stick Magazines

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/67/lid/1670

 

Early Production Colt Model 1921 Serial Number "1057" Fully Automatic/NFA Thompson Submachine Gun with FBI Case, Accessories, Several Drum and Stick Magazines

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/67/lid/3396

World War II Savage Arms Corp Produced Class III Fully Automatic Model 1928A1 Thompson Submachine Gun

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/67/lid/3402

 

 

[Sig]

 

Most all the pictures leave something to be desired, ie. want more but here are my comments

 

NO 598, looks like a refinished wood set and rear grip is suspect. Finish needs a closer look but does not look at the top of the market for condition. Barrel looks like it could be the original which if so would have the same NO 598 inscribed on the breach, which may be possible to see through the extractor cut.

 

Prototype is above my free pay grade

 

Navy nothing jumped out and screamed it does not look right

 

NO 1057 htrndarren noted in another thread the fire control is not right and the rear grip does not look correct to me.

 

Chrome plated Savage, no comment

[newtommygunner]

#568 stock suspect, has sling swivel.

[hntrdarren]

The Colt 27AC serial # 5188 does not have a selector and incorrect wood.

[Sig]

 

Bonus information

 

NO 598 looks like it may have been an Irish Sword. NO 598 info in Gordon's book shows it as being part of the Rorke seizure, but then under Interterms and Ireland in his book, it shows as being imported from Ireland in 1956

 

NO 12489 Navy was with Huntsville, AL PD

[Mk VII]

The two are not necessarily incompatible. After the case was dropped the guns were released to their rightful owners, and made their way into Ireland by various means over the subsequent years.

[DLansky]

as pointed out in earlier posts on 598, the butt stock is suspect given the swing swivel and the pistol grip is clearly military. the vertical foregrip is either a military replacement or has been sanded significantly. it also is listed as having a crack. unlike the stock, there is no reference to the foregrip crack having been repaired. the reference in the description to the gun being accompanied by "an original 30 round magazine" is clearly incorrect. as Sig noted, additional pictures would be very helpful to evaluate the condition of this gun.

 

The BSA Thompson and the Experimental T2 Thompson both came out of the Free bankruptcy estate. If I recall correctly, the bankruptcy trustee circulated materials that had more extensive pictures and descriptions of these guns. I believe there are prior threads with links to these materials.

[DLansky]

I was able to obtain some pictures of Colt 21A # 598 that confirm that the pistol grip and butt stock are military replacements. The Auction company also confirmed that the anchor proof is not visible on the butt stock.

[villafuego]

The BSA , T-2, and the Stainless Chassan "M1A2" are also featured in detail in the old William Douglas TSMG VHS

[Merry Ploughboy]

What's a VHS? But seriously, I bought the DVD version from Mr. Douglas over 10 years ago.

 

The BSA , T-2, and the Stainless Chassan "M1A2" are also featured in detail in the old William Douglas TSMG VHS

[Ron Mills]

I also had the VHS version of the Douglas TSMG film.

So, does RIA ever take inventory from the museum to auction (since they obviously have a large inventory) or are the pieces on every auction all from private hands? I've been to the museum a few times and wondered how many display pieces, if any, are transferable.

[Jrickard81]

That T2 prototype looks like a hipoint fugly but with a lil more work i bet it could have been made to run and not stress crack.

[ron_brock]

I also had the VHS version of the Douglas TSMG film.

So, does RIA ever take inventory from the museum to auction (since they obviously have a large inventory) or are the pieces on every auction all from private hands? I've been to the museum a few times and wondered how many display pieces, if any, are transferable.

I do not believe the auction company is affiliated with the Arsenal. They just both happen to be in Rock Island Illinois.

[DLansky]

I was able to obtain a picture of the barrel/receiver index lines. Does the barrel look like a correct barrel for an early 21A? I welcome your opinions.

[Merry Ploughboy]

I was able to obtain a picture of the barrel/receiver index lines. Does the barrel look like a correct barrel for an early 21A? I welcome your opinions.

I am no expert, but if I had the cash, I'd be bidding on s/n 598. The barrel looks correct to me, and maybe it's just the angle of the photos but it looks to me like what Ron Kovar has described as "One of those '21 Thompson barrels where the fins are so narrow you could shave with 'em."

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

[DLansky]

here are some additional barrel pictures. thank you for sharing your opinions. For what it is worth, the auction company says that they cannot see a number down the ejector slot on the face of the barrel.

Edited April 5, 2016 by DLansky

[giantpanda4]

Dave, that should be definitive by itself... replacement.

Unless the did not try too hard to look.

[gijive]

Dave,

I thought all the numbered barrels were not always visible from the ejection opening? The barrel looks original to me. It has the right number of fins (29). Correct front sight, as well.

[bmarvin]

In my opinion the barrel is correct

[giantpanda4]

I do not understand. Obviously I could be wrong, but you guys are saying the barrel number may not be visible. But it should be numbered to be correct for this s/n gun - right? Looking into most thompson receivers from the ejection port without a camera or mirror is tough (and I doubt the auction company even field strips them), but if one is dilligent, I assume you will see a number if one is there... right?

[gijive]

Mike.

 

I thought I remembered being told that the number is not always visible depending on where it ends up when installed. For example, if it ends up on the side away from the extractor slot, it is difficult to see. I've only see a number on a removed barrel, so I don't have any first-hand experience.

[ThompsonCrazy]

GP and GI,

Fantastic input and thought starters. It could intertwine with the barrel draw mark as well as the front sight alignment and there series of procedures but I think I'm just over complicating things in my head. I imagine none of us doubt that the sights were installed and pinned after the barrel was completely tightened.

 

The numbers were obviously struck on the chamber mouth before barrel install.

 

Is it the consensus that these early gun serial numbers on the barrel could have been struck at any of the 360-degree location? Not 180 from the draw mark or any specific area?

 

TC

[Merry Ploughboy]

Being a correct barrel for a 21A and being the barrel that was originally installed on a particular 21A are not necessarily the same thing.

[gijive]

Merry Ploughboy,

 

GiantPanda was referring to the number struck on the mouth of all Thompson barrels under serial number 1000. They numbered the barrels to the guns during that production period but apparently dropped it after serial number 1000. His comments were directed towards the fact that if the number wasn't visible, it must be a replacement barrel. I countered with the fact that I had been told that all the original barrel numbers under 1000 were not always visible from the ejection port, so it still may be the original barrel.

[Merry Ploughboy]

gijive, I understand. However, IIRC there may have been instances where Thompsons were tested during production, found to have defects (or perhaps even a barrel bulged during proof testing), reworked at the Colts factory and then reshelved. That would be one plausible explanation for a correct but not original (serial numbered to the receiver) barrel even if the barrel is un-numbered.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.