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New member with Chief Law Enforcement Officer questions.


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I am a new member with a few questions. Tomorrow I am meeting with the sheriff of the county I am from in PA to ask him if he would sign my form 5. The tommy gun was my fathers and he passed away and I am trying to get it transferred to me. I am told he signs some and not others. Is there anything special I should say or ask for or should I just go in and ask with my fingers crossed?
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The form 5 instructions says. "The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police for the transferee's city or town of residence; the Sheriff for the transferee's county of residence; the Head of the State Police for the transferee's State or residence; a State or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction in the transferee's area of residence"

 

The sherif of the county is listed second, should I go to chief of police for the city before I go to the sheriff of the county?

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Sheriffs and chiefs can be politically tied up with liberal rulers in any area of the country and if that is the case they shine each others shoes, and one will not sign if the other won't. State police are a good bet when the others won't sign, although sometimes they also are beholden to the liberal POV. Judges and DAs can sign, but as noted above, the CLEO signature will be retired as of 7/16/2016 and the new requirement will be to use the new F4/5s which will have a notification page for sending to your CLEO.

Give ti a try with the CLEO and if he's negative wait until July.

Edited by Black River Militaria CII
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In 81 days from today it won't matter anymore, the CLEO sign-off will be eliminated from the transfer process.

 

A lot of guys were bellyaching about 41F because of the requirement to add finger prints and photos to trust ownership.

 

IMHO, the addition of print and photos to trusts were inevitable when trusts became popular to use, and the elimination of CLEO sign off is a HUGE step forward.

 

The idea that you have to beg permission from your local police to own a firearm is outrageous.

Edited by buzz
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You might ask your local Class III dealer, what's up with our local CLEO. Does he sign, not sign, who signs...

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in my area its the sheriff who signs off.........i tried to get my local police chief and he was afraid to sign...he made it go before the town council and made it into a political situation......i recommend asking your local gun shop who signs off in your area and just go directly to them....if no one will sign off then wait until july 13th and your free to do as you wish w/o their signature

 

good luck

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You be wanting to read section 9.5.3 and 9.5.3.1 (the latter contains the text relevant to the CLEO on an inheritance).

 

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

 

edit: state of residence not an issue on inheritance, either so long as the product is not prohibited where the transferee resides.

 

Edited by The Lone Ranger
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No CLEO signature is required for a Form 5 to a lawful heir. Has the will been probated, was there even a will? For estate transfers that I have done in the past, what was require to be sent in was a certified copy of the death certificate, certified copes of the letters of testamentary, proof of heirship...

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There is no will. I was told I need to fill out a form 5 that my mother will sign on my dads behalf. I will also need a copy of the death certificate, their marriage license, and my birth certificate to prove right of heirship. Is this correct? I have one picture , but it's not a very good one.
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I'm no lawyer but did go through probate for my parents.

Sorry for your loss.

Technically, here in CA I believe that the gun now belongs to your mother if your folks were still married.

Can you "inherit" it yet while your mom is living? I'd think not.......Phil

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If there is no will, the property passes by "intestate succession," that is, as specified by state law. Sometimes the surviving spouse inherits everything, and sometimes the children get a percentage (depends on state law). In the OP's case, I would guess that the Thompson passed to the OP's mother, by operation of law. Therefore, a Form 5 would be needed to register it in her name (tax free), and then a Form 4 (tax paid) would be used to transfer it to the OP (the son).

 

In cases of intestate succession, an "administrator" is appointed by the probate court. That would probably be the OP's mother. She would be filing the Form 5 in her capacity as administrator, and then she would be filing the subsequent Form 4 in her own capacity as owner (transferor).

 

I would suggest that the OP hire a lawyer to straighten this out.

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In many states the division of property via intestate succession means the surviving spouse receives 1/2 the estate or a child's portion, whichever is larger. Of course, most items will be jointly owned by the husband and wife with a right of survivorship so there is very little for any children at this time. I would research the law of intestate sucession in the state you live and see if the child recieves a share of the estate (via intestate succession). If so, the surviving spouse may be able to transfer this Thompson directly to the child via a Form 5 as his or her share of the estate. It costs nothing to try as the Form 5 is a tax free transfer. I would not transfer the Thompson to the surviving spouse unless she intends to keep it. Perhaps The Lone Ranger can add more light on this. It seems simple enough.

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The OP has underestimated the complexity of this process. He would need a lot more than a death certificate, a marriage license, and a birth certificate.

 

The portion of the estate that a child gets under intestate succession (if the child gets anything) is a percentage of an undesignated pool of assets. It would be up to the administrator, under supervision of the probate court, to designate specific assets that would fulfill this percentage. Probably an expert appraisal of the value (of the Thompson) would be required.

 

It might be easier just for the mother to take possession, using a Form 5, and then do a tax-paid transfer later. This would only cost $200, probably less than the appraiser's fee. But I'll repeat: see a lawyer.

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In my experience, the executor/executrix does not have to do a F5 to him/herself prior to transferring the MG. The OP and his mom can fill out a Form 4 and pay the $200 and it goes directly to the OP after approval. I have purchased 4 NFA items this way. Saves time as you don't have to wait for the F5 to clear then wait again for the F4 to be approved.

 

All this is null, as was stated above, if the OP can get it as a lawful heir on a F5.

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Seeing a lawyer is always a good idea. However, one has to ask if probate is necessary. If everything but this Thompson is jointly owned and passes outside of the estate and all the bills and debts are paid, probate does very little to settle this estate, especially if it is a small estate and outside the taxable limits for the State and feds. It has been my experience that a couple who married at an early age with no previous children and with few possessions and accumulated wealth over many years own the great majority of real and personal property jointly. This Thompson is an anomaly because the ATF requires it to be titled in one persons name. Of course, my example is very simplistic and may not apply. I suggest a conference call with the mother and son to the BATFE to explain the situation and see what would be an acceptable resolution to transfer this registered Thompson. If the situation is as simple as I described, an attorney and probate may not be necessary. But maybe so...

 

This forum provides excellent advice but it is worth what you pay for it - nothing. See what the experts at the BATFE have to say. The Thompson is registered; they want it transferred to someone in a reasonable amount of time.

 

​All good stuff!

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Definitely no transfer to the executor/ix. There was a brief time where someone got an idea and was imposing "mandatory inheritence", but no more.

 

Edit: Have handled estate transfers to spouses, children, nephews/nieces, but never seen a birth certificate demanded. Things change, though.

 

Edited by The Lone Ranger
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