Savage M1A1 unusual ?

[Scottelo]

Looking for some info here, isn’t this serial number low for a M1A1 ?
It has the earlier M1 stock on, with no strengthening cross bolt.
Any help I am grateful for.
This Thompson spent time in Italy, as it has an Italian proof stamp.

[BillyDixon]

welcome to board,,, is this gun here in U.S. ? is it in firing condition ? just wondering

[Scottelo]

Unfortunately not, in UK. It’s not welded solid though as the specification is Pre EU, 1993.

[BillyDixon]

since your new here i suggest you scroll bown the board and read every past post, perhaps your question has been answered before... i think the small stamp is a europe deactive stamp, perhaps german,,good luck, just sayn

[Scottelo]

since your new here i suggest you scroll bown the board and read every past post, perhaps your question has been answered before... i think the small stamp is a europe deactive stamp, perhaps german,,good luck, just sayn

Hi,

Thanks for your advice, I’ve been through most of the previous posts, and doesn’t answer my questions.

The FAT 51 stamp is Italian proof mark. Probably applied in 1951, after the war they were issued to Italian Army and Police.

[TD.]

Scottelo,

Welcome to the Thompson forum. I agree the serial number on your early M1A1 appears very early for the M1A1 variation. However, I have never studied this Thompson variation. For the World War II variations, I always turn to American Thunder III by Frank Iannamico. This is the authority on the WWII Thompson guns in my opinion.

 

It would be nice if someone would start collecting serial number and nomenclature information on the M1 series of Thompsons. After a number of years and many entries, it may be possible to make some better educated observations on the serial number ranges of the Savage and Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport M1/M1A1 Thompson guns. Perhaps this is already happening with a forum member. This is what I did for the Savage Commercials, 1928ACs and NAC Thompson guns. I spent over 10 years chasing down these variations, usually one at a time. Data collection is not all that difficult, but it does take a certain amount of dedication.

 

Thank you for identifying the Italian proof mark. I have saved a copy of the picture in my files. If possible, I would appreciate a picture a little more in focus. This mark is not something we see on Thompson guns on a regular basis. Now you need an Italian manual to go with your Italian Thompson gun. Here are few of the Italian manuals.

 

[Bridgeport28A1]

Your Question number 1, isn’t this serial number low for a M1A1 ?

 

It is a low serial number for a factory roll stamped M1A1. Maybe it went through an overhaul at point and the same font stamps were used? It also has a protected Winged L rear sight. The no crossbolt rear stock is as easy as changing out the stock at some point.

 

It would be the lowest serial number I have recorded for an M1A1.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bridgeport28A1

[Scottelo]

The Italian proof mark, It is a military marking for the Italian Arsenal at Terni FAT (arsenal- Fabrica Armi Terni)

[Frank Iannamico]

What makes that M1A1 unusual is its low serial number. At first I thought it was an AOC mfg, whose serial number ranges differ, (and are usually poorly stamped) but the GEG / FJA stamps confirms that its a Savage.

When I did the AT3 books I compiled a data base of hundreds of serial numbers/features, but its long disappeared into cyberspace.

Savage made 285,480 M1 models before transitioning to the M1A1 version, making that low s/n quite an anomaly.

The A1 markings appear factory roll marked, not added to an arsenal updated M1. Additionally, never say never, but I have never seen an M1 that was US Property marked, only M1A1s

[Bridgeport28A1]

Frank, I was hoping you would reply to this thread. Your lost in cyber space serial number list was considerably longer then my list.
Frank, there are not included in any of your AT books, but did you ever locate the U.S. Ordnance records after publication or determine the serial number blocks that were assigned to Savage Arms and AOC? From your recollection did either of the two manufacturers run over into the others serial number blocks?

Edited January 29, 2022 by Bridgeport28A1

[gijive]

All,

 

I believe the answer lies in the fact that the pictured M1A1 Thompson from the previous post may have been altered with Photoshop or a similar digital imaging program. Note that the series of pictures below (randomly pulled off the Internet) show an M1 Thompson, an M1 (hand stamped A1-AOC made) A1 Thompson, and a factory marked M1A1 Thompson with a period after the NO, prior to the serial number. The M1A1 in question doesn't have a period present after the NO and enough space that another character could have been removed. See example of the M1A1 below with the serial number altered with Photoshop.

 

M1 Thompson M1A1 Thompson (Hand-Stamped) M1A1 Thompson

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by gijive

[Bridgeport28A1]

All,

 

I believe the answer lies in the fact that the pictured M1A1 Thompson from the previous post may have been altered with Photoshop or a similar digital imaging program. Note that the series of pictures below (randomly pulled off the Internet) show an M1 Thompson, an M1 (hand stamped A1-AOC made) A1 Thompson, and a factory marked M1A1 Thompson with a period after the NO, prior to the serial number. The M1A1 in question doesn't have a period present after the NO and enough space that another character could have removed. See example of the M1A1 below with the serial number altered with Photoshop.

 

M1 Thompson NO-158572.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-385616.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-308111.jpg

M1 Thompson M1A1 Thompson (Hand-Stamped) M1A1 Thompson

 

M1A1 Thompson NO-94897.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-308111-Altered.jpg

 

Kudos to gijive for the answer to this serial number anomaly, still the detective.

[Frank Iannamico]

I think Chuck has the answer!

 

All,

 

I believe the answer lies in the fact that the pictured M1A1 Thompson from the previous post may have been altered with Photoshop or a similar digital imaging program. Note that the series of pictures below (randomly pulled off the Internet) show an M1 Thompson, an M1 (hand stamped A1-AOC made) A1 Thompson, and a factory marked M1A1 Thompson with a period after the NO, prior to the serial number. The M1A1 in question doesn't have a period present after the NO and enough space that another character could have been removed. See example of the M1A1 below with the serial number altered with Photoshop.

 

M1 Thompson NO-158572.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-385616.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-308111.jpg

M1 Thompson M1A1 Thompson (Hand-Stamped) M1A1 Thompson

 

M1A1 Thompson NO-94897.jpg M1A1 Thompson NO-308111-Altered.jpg

[Frank Iannamico]

Frank, I was hoping you would reply to this thread. Your lost in cyber space serial number list was considerably longer then my list.

Frank, there are not included in any of your AT books, but did you ever locate the U.S. Ordnance records after publication or determine the serial number blocks that were assigned to Savage Arms and AOC? From your recollection did either of the two manufacturers run over into the others serial number blocks?

 

Such a serial number list is the holy grail of military Thompson collecting, myself and many researchers have looked for serial number documentation, but have never found any such list. It may be somewhere, but its not in the National Archives in Maryland or D.C.

I would suspect it to be with the records of the applicable Ordnance Districts, and I've gone through all those files numerous times.

[Scottelo]

I assure you, nothing is photoshopped here, I could video it too if you like?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Scottelo

[Scottelo]

Video.

[gijive]

I have to admit that the video looks rather convincing that the gun looks original. There is a flash of the rear end of the left-side of the receiver while you were moving the camera, is there a mark on the rear, similar to a rebuild mark, or is it just a scratch? The only other thing that comes to mind is that maybe there was an early serial number block assigned to Savage when they changed to M1A1 production? Frank and Ross, what say you?

[Frank Iannamico]

Well it remains a mystery, in the 80 years since the gun was made a lot could have happened, I have seen a number of M1s in that s/n range, but never an M1A1.

IMHO the number on the bottom of the trigger guard is not factory applied. There is evidence of grinding / filing, the font is wrong, and the numbers are misaligned something not seen on Savage made TSMGs.

Obviously someone was doing some s/n "work" perhaps the receiver s/n was altered at some point to conceal a theft (?) Impossible to know for sure. As Chuck pointed out there is the missing period after the letter O and the space between.

[Scottelo]

The Period is there, this pic is much higher resolution and can be seen.
There’s a S in front of mag well lower, one on barrel and another mark under the stock. No other marks.
I believe the roll sided serial to be original, there would be marks if ground down and reapplied and thickness would be less than at front where FJA mark is.
My thinking is that there was supposed to be another number, and for whatever reason the stamp wasn’t applied, because there’s room for another digit after the period,

The mark you refer to is an Italian proof mark “FAT 51”

Edited January 30, 2022 by Scottelo

[dalbert]

Could this have been a sample? Im away from the books at the moment. What is the earliest known M1A1 serial?

 

David

[Frank Iannamico]

I think this is a plausible answer... just a SNAFU

 

The Period is there, this pic is much higher resolution and can be seen.
There’s a S in front of mag well lower, one on barrel and another mark under the stock. No other marks.
I believe the roll sided serial to be original, there would be marks if ground down and reapplied and thickness would be less than at front where FJA mark is.
My thinking is that there was supposed to be another number, and for whatever reason the stamp wasn’t applied, because there’s room for another digit after the period,

The mark you refer to is an Italian proof mark “FAT 51”

[Frank Iannamico]

Could this have been a sample? Im away from the books at the moment. What is the earliest known M1A1 serial?

 

David

 

Hi David,

M1s went well into six-digits... I recall that the L type sight was replaced by the protected type around M1 #137,000 or so. Drawing A42-86 , document dated 24 Feb 1942, accepted for production 17 July 1942