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QUOTE (TD. @ Aug 28 2006, 07:29 PM)
I even have Lancer now saying that maybe the Thompson when transferred from Maguire is a bastard child from General Thompson's original company. Actually, that is not a bad analogy; Lancer, I may steal that phrase from you someday. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif [/size][/color][/font]

TD

You are more than welcome to use the phrase. Actually I'm a bit surprised you signed on to the analogy being as how it questions the legitimacy of the present day Auto Ordnance. Now if Arthur would sign on.........do I smell a compromise in the air? Nah,.... can't be.

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Lancer,

I doubt Arthur and I will reach a compromise anytime soon. Actually, Arthur is very knowledgeable about the Thompson Submachine Gun. I enjoy reading his technical assessments about the different Colt Thompson’s that have appeared on this board with questions concerning parts, finish, etc. Unfortunately, he is stuck on corporate succession when it comes to the history of the Thompson and the quality control by the later owners. I don't think the term "bastard" really questions the legitimacy of the Thompson line of succession; to me it just shows that the Thompson has followed an interesting path to its present location. Considering the path it took while with the General, an eventful journey afterward should have been expected.

Thanks,

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TD,

 

You seem to single me out as the sole entity that explodes the "unbroken chain" myth. Leaving aside the recent posters in this thread, Phil, Norm, rhlowe, and even Lancer, who do not share your conclusions, let us not forget that Gordon Herigstadt, Roger Cox, Doug Richardson and William Helmer do not support your position either. Since you have no documents to support your position, do you have any published author who you could cite that does? Using Numrich's own words in an interview are not going to carry the day.

 

"Follow the transfers, follow the money, follow the reason for purchase and follow what each owner did with the Thompson. The line of succession is continuous." TD

 

Let's examine your "chain" of owners:

 

Kilgore's purchase in 1949 resulted in.....0 TSMG's made. He didn't even know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates.

 

Fred Willis purchase in 1951 resulted in.....0 TSMG's made. He didn't know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates.

 

George Numrich purchase in 1951 resulted in......0 TSMG's made. He didn't know about the 85-100(?) complete TSMG's in the crates. Now in this instance, Numrich's ignorance about the existing TSMG's is puzzling since, as you claim, he bought the crates from Willis for the express purpose of manufacturing from scratch new TSMG's. Maybe he figured there were thousands of TSMG's he could import? How much money did he make from selling these crated 100 some TSMG's? $20,000? How much did he pay Willis for the crates?

 

Now back to your rules for unbroken chains of succession we must suspend all previously accepted laws of product succession.

 

1) Whether the name of the original TSMG company AOC (the one that developed, manufactured, and marketed TSMG from 1916- 1944) follows the sale of crates is immaterial since corporation names don't count.

 

2) For 31 years, a new TSMG made under the auspices of the original AOC did not exist until Trast made 1927A1's and smg's in 1975 under the umbrella of the brand new AOC name. By TD's law this absence of product is irrelevant because unbroken chains of lineage are not depended upon existence of newly made product to claim membership in the unbroken chain club.

 

"Auto-Ordnance Corporation ceased to exist before the end of World War II." TD

 

This is where your wires got horribly crossed. AOC did not cease to exist at that time. But it did stop having anything to do with making Thompson's after March, 1944. As stated in the previous post, AOC stayed with the Maguire family. By the time Maguire made the sale of crates in 1949, the AOC that was responsible for making TSMG's was no longer the name of the business that Maguire had renamed his firearms company. In fact, Maguire not only did not make Thompson's under the new name "Ordnance Division," he didn't make any firearms.

 

Had Maguire made TSMG's under the AOC name right up to the sale of the crates to Kilgore in 1949, or at least kept the AOC name for his firearm branch, then, and only then, would it be possible for Kilgore to have purchased, and Maguire to have sold, the original company that made TSMG's. Just because Maguire said I am through with making/selling/marketing TSMG's in 1944, in no way translates into Kilgore being able to state he bought the crates from AOC and, therefore, now owns the AOC that made TSMG's prior to 1945.

 

The more likely scenario is that Maguire told Kilgore, "Here yo go. Now have fun making Thompson's under your own business name." It sure seems that Numrich took this advice and used his Numrich Arms Corporation to sell existing TSMG's and fix broken ones.

 

As far as "bastard child?" Like "Big Valley's" Heath Barkley? I'm thinking more like "My Three Sons" Ernie Thompson Douglas.

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One thing for certain, this topic could go on for years.

Well years past what it has already survived.

 

I still find it extreemly interesting to read.

 

So far as bastardized guns, even the Trast era would fall under that heading. They never worked well either! But Ira gave it the ole Collage "Ra". Speaking of Ira Trast, is he even alive? Perhaps he may be a souce of info, or his family.

 

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Arthur,

So much mis-information and pure guesses sprinkled with a little truth here and there. But I will let you stew in it. However, one thing you said is very interesting:

QUOTE
The more likely scenario is that Maguire told Kilgore, "Here yo go. Now have fun making Thompson's under your own business name." It sure seems that Numrich took this advice and used his Numrich Arms Corporation to sell existing TSMG's and fix broken ones.

You're right on point. Actually, Maguire didn't care what name Kilgore was planning to use or whether or not it ever made or sold any Thompsons. Maguire sold off a product line - end of story as far as Maguire is concerned. And George? Well he sold some Thompsons well before Numrich Arms Corporation came to life...but that is another story.

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So let me get this straight...when my wife takes my FA Thompson money and buys that new facelift, liposuction, and new boobs, then I'll be sleeping with a "replica"?! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

Rob

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TD,

 

Abandoned? Once more just for you:

 

Roger Cox:

 

"The original Auto Ordnance Corporation is still (circa 1982) a valid New York chartered corporation. It was incorporated on August 25, 1916, and with the two name changes is still in business today in Dallas, Texas headed by Cary Maguire, the son of Russell, although far removed from firearms manufacture. The name was changed officially to Maguire Industries, Inc., on March 15, 1944, and again to Components Corporation of America on March 14, 1961.

 

ghostsoldier:

 

Only if she gets a new soul as well.

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Arthur: Once more just for you:

 

The corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. Components Corporation of America has no claim on or for these names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

 

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

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TD,

 

I can't improve on Phil's post. But I do find it interesting that you seem to acknowledge that Maguire did not sell the AOC name to Kilgore. So if the name of the business that made TSMG's was not sold along with the crates then whomever took possession of the crates could not claim any direct relationship to the original AOC company.

 

You can't have it both ways. Either the original "AOC" was sold to Kilgore/Willis/Numrich or it was up for grabs to "anyone with proper application to the State of New York." But since there is no way to make this fit into your line of succession theory, you are left with the notion that whomever owned the crates, owned the original entity that made the TSMG.

 

What is the harm in admitting that the "AOC" Trast manufactured his 1927A1 and TSMG's under is not the same one that Maguire made TSMG's under in 1944? You even refer to Trast's "AOC" as new." If George Gershwin were the third guy in the sale of the Maguire crates instead of George Numrich would you still be making this pitch?

 

Is it necessary, or even prudent, to manipulate the standard practices of company purchases/mergers/take overs to preserve George Numrich's legacy because he donated a Model 1923 prototype Thompson to the West Point Museum?

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Phil - Your post is painful to read. You really need to do some original research on this subject before you post. Everything I stated was true.

 

Arthur - I am sad to see you are still hanging on to the corporation angle. I thought you might have something new or original to add in this conversation. If I was going to use the corporation angle to espouse your flawed views on this subject, I would have ended the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation with the creation of the Thompson Automatic Arms Corporation in 1939. After all, the World War II Thompson’s are nothing like the original Colt Thompson’s. I know you will continue on trying to confuse everyone about the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York and the much newer Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York. Yes, they are connected in a line of succession with the Thompson. But as everyone knows, the new corporation did not derive directly from the old corporation. The old corporation sold off the Thompson product line in 1949 and moved on to other things. One of the future owners (George Numrich/Ira Trast) of the Thompson product formed the new corporation in 1974 to market new and old Thompson’s. This is all public record. Let me state this again:

 

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

 

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

 

If you can find anything wrong with what I posted, please state by what authority. I have researched it thoroughly - and enjoyed every minute of it.

 

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Arthur - I am sad to see you are still hanging on to the corporation angle. I thought you might have something new or original to add in this conversation.

 

Sure. And your posts are filled with new material? I've seen more originality from Elmyr de Hory.

 

If I was going to use the corporation angle to espouse your flawed views on this subject, I would have ended the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation with the creation of the Thompson Automatic Arms Corporation in 1939. After all, the World War II Thompson’s are nothing like the original Colt Thompson’s. I know you will continue on trying to confuse everyone about the original Auto-Ordnance Corporation, New York, New York and the much newer Auto-Ordnance Corporation, West Hurley, New York. Yes, they are connected in a line of succession with the Thompson. But as everyone knows, the new corporation did not derive directly from the old corporation.

 

The old corporation sold off the Thompson product line in 1949 and moved on to other things.

 

Maguire's new company, Ordnance Division, that existed at the time he sold the crates in 1949, did not make any TSMG's. It also did not have anything to do with the TSMG. The company that did make TSMG's, AOC, stopped making them in March of 1944. That company was indeed maintained by the Maguire family. There is no getting around this fact.

 

One of the future owners (George Numrich/Ira Trast) of the Thompson product formed the new corporation in 1974 to market new and old Thompson’s. This is all public record.

 

If Numrich owned AOC and he sold AOC to Trast, why would Trast need to form a new AOC? It is true that there is a record of Trast applying for the right to make his version of the Thompson in 1974 and 1984. But there is no record of in reverse order Numrich, Kilgore or Willis buying anything other than crates.

 

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes.

 

AOC was not discarded by the Maguire family. Repeating it is not fact. The above paragraph is from Roger Cox except for your erroneous added last sentence Are you calling Roger Cox a liar? Please cite your authority?

 

The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

 

Approved? By whom? Again. This is the sort of "documentation" and logic you rely on for your "unbroken chain" missing link theory.

 

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

 

How can I end up in Dallas with a Maguire if Russell abandoned the AOC name? Following the merchandise is a valuable tool in arresting drug dealers and their suppliers. It has zero credibility in determining proof of the continuation of the original business that made an original product.

 

If you can find anything wrong with what I posted, please state by what authority. I have researched it thoroughly - and enjoyed every minute of it.

 

Are you privy to documents that the rest of us are not? If not, we have all seen the same material. What seems ineffable to you, mostly your reverence for all things Numrich, is completely lacking in substance to amateur TSMG devotees like myself and professional authorities like Helmer, Cox, Richardson and Herigstadt.

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At this stage in the thread, you have to ask yourself....does anyone give a shit anymore????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.cswnet.com/~luther/domdeluise.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nutkick.gif

 

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

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Jr/Norm - AGREE

 

Arthur - It is simply amazing the lengths one will go to in an attempt to preserve something they very much want to believe is true. May I suggest some original research on your part? Let me state the facts again to help you with your pain:

 

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

 

The corporation has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc. Follow the product; the trail is clearly marked. If you follow the corporation, you end up in Dallas. If you follow the product, you end up at Kahr Arms. I'm following the product....

 

Just another little tidbit for thought: Maguire Industries, Inc., now Components Corporation of America, sold off the Thompson in 1949. Please note since that time how George Numrich, Ira Trast and now Kahr Arms use the Auto-Ordnance name and everything Thompson with authority and without objection from Maguire, now Components. In my business, we call this fact a clue!

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Phil,

This post is also painful to read. It contains nothing of value. I don't mean any offense and certainly do not want to ruin the relationship we have on this board. However, may I suggest putting some of that government training to work by doing some original research on this subject before you post again. Everything I stated was true. By your remarks in the last paragraph, it appears you must have been some type of analyst for your former employer. I don't banter around what I do for a living, but let me just say people take my phone calls in that city you once worked in.

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Phil,

Of course, we are still friends and Thompson co-conspirators! We just happen to believe in different paths the Thompson has taken since 1916. I fully support you in your beliefs...but I happen to think they are misguided. The entire story has not been written on this subject. But that will come someday. Since we are here, I do want to show you one thing regarding the last several posts. Here is the quote from Roger Cox as per Arthur (I assume it is right as I am in travel status and do not have my Cox book handy):

 

Roger Cox:

 

"The original Auto Ordnance Corporation is still (circa 1982) a valid New York chartered corporation. It was incorporated on August 25, 1916, and with the two name changes is still in business today in Dallas, Texas headed by Cary Maguire, the son of Russell, although far removed from firearms manufacture. The name was changed officially to Maguire Industries, Inc., on March 15, 1944, and again to Components Corporation of America on March 14, 1961.

 

Here is the first part of what I have been posting on the last several posts:

 

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation still exists. It has changed names two times since being formed by General Thompson in 1916. The names Auto-Ordnance and Maguire Industries were discarded after the name changes. The current name is now Components Corporation of America. Components Corporation of America has no claim on these former names. These names became available for use by anyone with proper application to the State of New York. Please note how George Numrich/Ira Trast formed a new Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the State of New York in the 70's to manufacture firearms. This name would not have been approved for current use if it was still in use by Components.

 

Notice that I have not contradicted one thing Roger Cox wrote about the corporation. I have certainly added to it, but what Roger has posted regarding the history of the corporation is correct. If you look at Arthur's post you will see that he skews every thing anyone posts if he does not agree with it. I never said the original corporation was abandoned or discarded, only the two former corporation names. Roger never addressed what happened to these old names in his book. I do address this issue and not by previously published information. Arthur's posts are filled with this type of mis-information, for example - “Maguire’s new company, Ordnance Division...." Arthur knows there was never a COMPANY owned by Maguire named Ordnance Division. Ordnance Division was a part of Maguire Industries, Inc. It is these types of posts with mis-information I like to point out. That is why I continue on with this thread.

 

I appreciate your response.

Thanks,

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TD,

 

"The Auto-Ordnance Corporation was downgraded to become merely the ORDNANCE DIVISION of a new parent company, Maguire Industries, Incorporated. " Bill Helmer

 

To say that Ordnance Divison is not a company, or a business, of Maguire Industries is absurd. Radio Shack is one business of the Tandy Company. This new company never made any TSMG's. The company that did make TSMG's, AOC, as you finally admit, was maintained by the Maguire family as was Maguire Industries.

 

"Please note since 1949, George Numrich, Ira Trast and now Kahr Arms use the Auto-Ordnance name and everything Thompson with authority and without objection from Maguire, now Components." TD

 

But Numrich never did use the AOC name on any TSMG made by him. We have put that issue to rest.

 

You somehow have extrapolated that because Maguire ceased production on TSMG's in March of 1944 and tucked away all the components used in the making of the Thompson, he also stuffed the original AOC name, the one that stayed with Maguire Industries, inside the crates as well. In fact AOC, while out of the TSMG business, was now in the oil well business, electrical equipment and compressed food products. Without the transfer of the original company's name that made the TSMG, you hit a brick wall.

 

Now you say AOC was never abandoned, only the name Maguire Industries and Components Corporation of America. All three are one and the same. Why do you think Cox bothered to make the point that AOC, regardless of the name changes, was still owned by the Maguire family? It goes directly to his point that the West Hurley is a replica of the original Thompson.

 

The corporation (AOC) has nothing to do with the Thompson line of succession after Maguire Industries, Inc." TD

 

It has everything to do with succession. Otherwise, the only thing left are the physical assets. Therefore, the only thing any buyer of the crates could do is make a Thompson, or in Numrich's case, assemble and fix a TSMG, under their own company names and not under the original AOC name. Why? Because that name did not automatically go with the crates. The proof of this fact is in the 3 initials "NAC."

 

No where in any of your post have you come up with any annotated or attributed information, other than to yourself, where it states Maguire did what you claim he did.

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Arthur,

I can see you are at it again. I don’t have to extrapolate anything; I deal in facts.

 

1. The Ordnance Division of Maguire Industries, Inc. was not a company. It was as stated by Bill Helmer, only a division of Maguire Industries, Inc. It, along with another division directly related to the Thompson, and several other divisions, made up Maguire Industries.

 

2. Auto-Ordnance Corporation was named Maguire Industries, Inc. when George purchased the Thompson from Willis in 1951. No one was using the name Auto-Ordnance Corporation except when speaking about past history. Maguire Industries, Inc. and George Numrich did use the name Auto-Ordnance Corporation when speaking about past history.

 

3. Numrich did not have to mark anything with the name Auto-Ordnance for him to be an owner in succession. The owner of a business decides what name to use. However, he did frequently refer to Auto-Ordnance.

 

4. If a West Hurley Thompson is a replica of an original Thompson, then the Savage and Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport Thompson’s are replicas too. You cannot have it both ways.

 

5. The corporate name or corporation itself has nothing to do with the continuing succession of the Thompson Submachine Gun. The Thompson was only a product of the Auto-Ordnance Corporation. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation changed its name to Maguire Industries, Inc. The Thompson product line did not fit within the business plan of Maguire Industries, Inc. The Thompson product line was sold in total to Kilgore Manufacturing Company. Maguire, Industries, Inc. retained no claim to anything Thompson and had discarded the Auto-Ordnance name prior to the sale of the Thompson.

 

I always enjoy being provided the opportunity to set the record straight. Following the lineage of the Thompson Submachine Gun over the years is really a very simple process. Maybe I should dig up my complete succession post that starts with the Blish pistol again....

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The Thompson has gone "the way of the Zephyr"!

 

Like someone mentioned FMCO and the Mustang somewhere in this mess.

 

The new Lincoln-Zephyr is made by Ford, that bought Lincoln. But is the new Lincoln-Zephyr still a Zephyr?

 

Not made in the same factory with the same tooling as the 1936-1948 Lincoln-Zephyr but now made in Mexico. Does it have a traceable history to the "real" Lincoln motor car company?

 

(BTW, I'm doing my part in making this silly thread move on to the next page)

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All,

 

This is going to be a long post…

 

I have mentioned in a couple of posts that Thompson history chapters exist which have yet to be written. It’s thrilling to see the amount of previously undiscovered or unpublished material that still exists regarding Auto-Ordnance, the TSMG, other AO inventions, and the many involved personalities over the years. Some clues have existed for 37 years without further research, some are completely new discoveries, and all required a lot of time and patience to unwind. There are chapters lending support to the opinion that the succession of the Thompson Submachine Gun extends from 1916 to present day, which is obviously an opinion of mine. One may reject or support the succession opinion, and I’m fine with that. What I strive to do is to find and publish as much Thompson history as I can, as I know it has a rich history unlike any other. I appreciate the historical value of other guns, and study some of them as well, but believe none compare to the Tommy Gun. Recently, others and I have discovered and/or researched history which provides substantial new information about the Thompson. Included in this new information is the disposition of thousands of Colt Thompsons, and about Auto-Ordnance during the “golden era.” Evidence in support of succession has also been found. Portions of the succession evidence will be revealed in this post, while disclosure of other significant finds will have to wait until the research paths are fully yielded.

 

The first historical find will not be a surprise to many, as it was published in the July 2006 issue of SAR, with a supportive preview in the May 2006 issue. I have mentioned Jean Koree, and the Hyde Model 35 Submachine Gun before on this board. The Hyde gun story is intertwined with the Thompson. Mr. Koree, along with Marcellus Thompson in 1932, and again with Marcellus Thompson and Matthew J. Hall in 1935, attempted to purchase Auto-Ordnance from the Ryan estate. I’m not going to go into all the details here, as you can read the magazine to see this bit of Thompson history that has been tucked away for 60+ years. This historical find took about a year to piece together from a 26 lb. box of documents I happened to purchase. I mention the Koree/Thompson information to support the fact that new Thompson historical information may still be found today.

 

The next bit of newly discovered history is a major find for the Colt Thompson world. A researcher in France and I shared information over the past 9 months or so to aid both our Thompson research efforts, and I also received help from others with the story here in the U.S. As a result, I can state that over 3000 Colt Thompsons were exported to France by Auto-Ordnance in late 1939. France methodically considered the Model 1921 Thompson, a Model 1923 in .45 Remington-Thompson caliber, and the BSA Thompson in 9mm during trials to select a submachine gun for their military during the 1920’s. They also tested a Model of 1921 Thompson in .351 Winchester, which is quite a unique story by itself. (The caliber selection had a connection to WWI balloon observation.) While the French did not select the Thompson for various reasons, when war appeared imminent, they bought up the remaining stock of Auto-Ordnance Colt Thompsons, just as company ownership was transferred to Russell Maguire. The timeline of the Savage plant TSMG startup was affected by France, as an additional order for 3000 was Savage’s first production order, placed by the French Purchasing Commission. British orders replaced the French order upon France’s surrender, before the Savage plant began production. This find has significant supportive documentation, including examples of remaining Colt Thompsons in France (with a uniquely standardized feature), pictures of 1921A’s in the hands of expatriate French soldiers training in Algeria, a letter from Savage, a letter from Matthew J. Hall, several French government documents, a German WWII manual referencing French Model of 1921 Thompsons, and three French manuals produced in France, specific to the Model of 1921 Thompson, published in 1941, 1942, and 1944, under Nazi occupation. It is also supported by several early French AO marketing examples that exist. The 3K+ Colt Thompsons purchased by France served mostly with French Police, and also with their military under Marshall Petain during WWII (under Nazi occupation), while some of the weapons left the country. There is a lot more specific detail to this find, and it will be published in the November 2006 issue of SAR. (The next issue) Thompson history is still out there to be found.

 

Now to Thompson succession…I am particularly interested in the Numrich years. Who here has seen a picture of “the crates?” Scroll down, and you will see one. George Numrich made an investment in something he believed in, and bought more than just parts, although gun parts in general was his main business. Numrich wanted to grow his business, and saw an opportunity in the Thompson. He began marketing, manufacturing, and servicing Thompsons by at least 1952, following his purchase in 1951. The Thompson was still widely used at that time, and he catered to law enforcement repairs, gun sales, and supplied parts. Many of the NAC guns exist in collector hands today, and are an intriguing chapter in Thompson history. I suggest not making the jump from 1944 to 1975 without carefully considering what Maguire, Kilgore, Willis, and Numrich did in the intervening 31 years.

 

Numrich moved operations from several warehouses in Mamaroneck, NY, to West Hurley, NY, following his purchase of the West Hurley property in 1952 from Martin Retting. Numrich wanted to move because the logistics of fulfilling orders with many remote warehouses in Mamaroneck was cutting into profit. He desired a centralized location where most of his parts could be located, and fulfillment operations run. At the same time, Numrich maintained some parts in warehouses in 2 other states, and Canada. I acquired a Numrich sales flyer that was generated in the Mamaroneck location, and was updated with the new West Hurley address after the company moved, with the Mamaroneck address crossed out. This probably dates the flyer to 1952 or 1953, based on what I have been able to determine since acquiring it. It states that the company had “13,000,000 Parts In Stock.” Three quarters of the flyer markets new Thompsons, Thompson parts, and service for existing Thompsons, focusing presumably on the law enforcement community. You will note that prices do not vary in difference much from the 1920’s and 30’s, and that catalog pictures from those periods are utilized in the advertising. Here are scans of the 3 pages of Thompson material included in the 4-page flyer.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/WH_Catalog-1_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/WH_Catalog-2_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/WH_Catalog-3_Web.JPG

 

The 4-page flyer was mailed as a folded insert within a single-page, double-side-printed general parts advertisement that was updated to 1957, with a 1957 postmark. Incidentally, my research indicates that Numrich advertised “13,000,000 Parts In Stock” approximately during the 1952-55 time period, “15,000,000 Parts In Stock” from 1956-57, and “17,000,000 Parts In Stock” from about 1957-59. In 1963, they had “Over 27,000,000 In Stock,” and in 1967, they had “Over 38,000,000 In Stock,” according to their corporate stationary. Numrich mail advertising was usually undated, but observations of the Numrich “# Parts In Stock” quote in dated magazine advertisements has aided in providing rough estimates of when the flyers were produced. I believe they have around 150,000,000+ parts in stock now. Here are pictures of the double-sided, single-page advertisement that is updated to 1957.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/WH_Catalog-5_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/WH_Catalog-6_Web.JPG

 

Their stationary also listed them as “Successors to: Auto-Ordnance Corp. (Thompson Submachine Guns)” in all the examples I have from 1963-1969. Here is an example from 1963:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Letterhead_1963.JPG

 

Here is an example from 1969:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Letterhead_1969.JPG

 

The next item is a brochure that was sent out to mail order customers as a way to satisfy their curiosity about what the Numrich operation looked like. It is undated, but based on the “17,000,000 Parts In Stock” comment it contains, it is circa 1957. This flyer is a significant piece of Thompson history. On the back page, it has some erosion around the bottom. Under a Numrich crest, you can read “M…………….…n Sub-machine Guns.” I am more than fairly certain that before the paper became eroded, it said “Manufacturer of Thompson Sub-machine Guns.” You be the judge. I don’t know what other “….…n Sub-machine Guns” Numrich would include as a highlight below their company crest, and within the brochure, Thompsons are the only reference to submachine guns made.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich-1_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich-2_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich-5_Web.JPG

 

Here is a picture from the brochure of some of “the crates.” I don’t believe any such pictures have been published, or otherwise seen any time recently. Notice the caption indicates the Thompsons in the crates are ‘awaiting completion.”

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich-Crates_Web.JPG

 

Here is a picture of an experimental gun rack that includes some Thompsons.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich-Exp_Web.JPG

 

The next series of Thompson advertisements appear almost exactly like the Mamaroneck flyer, except for a few pricing changes, and the updated West Hurley address. I believe this flyer dates from about 1959.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich3-1_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich3-2_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Numrich3-3_Web.JPG

 

Numrich manufactured Thompson barrels from bar stock from at least 1955 to 1996. This is supported by onsite observations made in 1965 by a Gun World writer, as well as an account from Ira Trast to me stating that barrels remained in production from the time he started at Numrich (1966) to at least 1996. It is also supported by this advertisement from the December 1955 American Rifleman magazine.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Ad_AR_12-55.JPG

 

This is a zoom of the Thompson barrel advertisement contained within the 1955 American Rifleman ad:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/Ad_AR_12-55_Zoom.JPG

 

Here is one thing to ponder. As Arthur challenged earlier in this thread, he wants to see a Numrich production receiver that was made from scratch. (He was much more specific than this, but you can go back and read the details.) I will pose to you that the answer to this may be mathematical. Look at what we know about Numrich Thompson sales in the 1950’s, and decide if it adds up.

 

I know what I have posted will not be seen as definitive for those who reject the succession opinion. My intention is to provide new information, which I hope some will appreciate.

 

There is significantly more to the story.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Dalbert,

 

I like all the info you shared, but it just hurts to read these prices.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif

 

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y204/mbsennett1/WH_Catalog-1_Web1.jpg

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