Zamm Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 I've told this story a few times on the board, but to make it short and simple: At the range one day with the Westy Semi, guy sees me and thinks its full auto. Writes down my license plate of car. Few weeks later undercover ATF agent befriends me at the college I was going to. Comes to dinner at my house a few times. Always asks about guns. Finally I tell him I have a Thompson SEMI! He asks to see. I show. He calls raid while holding the gun. Cold Colt Python.357 under my ear, hands against wall. Other agent says "oh-oh". End of story. I mean, you think an ATF agent would have known that "Semi-Automatic Carbine" stamped into the receiver meant something?? I did not have to produce my Ira Trask letter: D Got this nifty keepsake of the event that hangs in my bathroom on occasion in its frame. P.S. Note all the misspellings.... Zamm http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/zamm/SearchWarrant.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 You should have sued. At least no dogs were killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Well, I was young and just happy to have the company of some G Men in the house! No, they were very nice and apologetic, but man, things could have turned out different if somebody made the wrong move. So, I got this neat piece of Thompson memorabilia out of it. Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 So Zamster what do you feed undercover agents anyhow..... We talkin mac and cheese or something a little bit more upscale...... Smartass remarks aside all I can say is WOW! That had be to one scary situation...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Zamm-- What amazes me is that it didn't take much to get that search warrant. If a person had a legal full auto in this situation, would the atf guys know enough to ask for registration papers? Hopefully, this is only an isolated occurrence. I shudder to think that this could be standard operating procedure. We would then have vindictive persons making up false reports on people they don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I'm sure these types of incidences occur all the time. Problem is, when it does, the victims are too afraid to speak out about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Chris Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 I am with Philasteen. I would have sued or at least made enough noise to have that agent pay with his job for: 1) Voilating my constitutional rights on the 2nd and 4th amendment. Isn't this "civil liberties"?!?!? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Just kidding... 2) Swearing false information on an affidavit 3) Any damage to my property, time lost from work, mental anquish, etc... I admit - I get a sick guilty pleasure out of the thought of using the system against rouge members of the government who make blatant mistakes and disregard the law. They should be held accountable in the same system they swear to defend and protect. Shame on them for not doing their homework and, God forbid! - checking the facts first. However, you are in NY, so nothing surprises me.... But still Craig- you had a freaking GUN drawn to your head in your own house while possessing a LEGAL firearm!!!!! Doesn't that bother you a little?!?! Simple checking of firearms transfer records and - even the freaking barrel length(!) should have been resolved before any of this came to that point. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 i recall reading your tale before, but when did this occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Iannamico Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Have you had the guy over for dinner lately? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nutkick.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v188 Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Zamm, How long ago was this? That version of the SW hasn't been used for years. It looks like a blank form that was typed on a typewriter. This must have been a long time ago, as I don't know any AUSA's that would submit that old form to a Mag Judge. BTW, the rest of the form on the bottom would have the date and Judge info, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Ah, my friends, To address some of the many questions; v188, Yes indeed, it was a typewriter. It occured on a cold evening in Jan. 1977. The bottom does show more info. I left the address in on top because we moved from there about 20 odd years ago, and the place burnt to the ground about 15 years ago. Anyone want to send something to that adress would get an empty lot out in the hinterlands of eastern Long Island. Nick, I really have a feeling the guy never went far in the ATF. He did fool me, looked like he was 16 years old, kept calling up and wanting to bring over stuff from "his grandfathers attic", old Lugers, Colt woodsman pistols from the 30's, etc.. I had made a comment when they were leaving that he might want to bone up on his firearm identification, being in that line of work. One of the agents quipped "he will have plenty of time for that while sweeping the floors around the office". Now, being older, I olny have representitives of the IRS over for brunch http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Brian, Right after New Years, 1977 D.C. Chris, Well, at the time I had just gotten married, was making $92 a week, 21 years old and scared sh*tless! I had a couple of buddies on the county police force who advised me to just "leave it alone" it was not woth the bull that they could throw into the courtroom. Needless to say, if it happened now, you would be reading about it on the front page of a national newspaper! Oh, to be young, clueless and stupid again http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif LIONHART, BINGO! For months after that, I was seeing black helocopters at night, talking in code on my phone and wrapping my head in tinfoil while sleeping ! Sgt. Yeah, I think things were a lot loser then, kind of easy going. I hope it takes a bit more to mount an opperation like this now, but who knows... Our tax dollars at work in 77' were easy to spend. Z3BigDaddy' Back to being a stupid kid in 1977, I offered them coffee! My wife asks if anyone was hungry ( cookies, cake and coffee? !!). Can you believe it??!! I must say, they were all very proffessional ( thinking back, they were probably trying to figure out how to explain this mess away!) refusing any beverage or food. I can remember that I kept putting my hands up after the initial bust in, and they kept saying "put your hands down, it's okay". Something about a bunch of guys with guns out in your house makes your hands stay in plain sight. And there it is. Again, things would be mighty different today, on all respects. Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Zamm, that empty lot is probably built up again as there does not appear to be a single inch of buildable bspace left on Long Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 QUOTE Zamm, that empty lot is probably built up again as there does not appear to be a single inch of buildable bspace left on Long Island. Well, We had passed by there a few years back... It was a house in the woods sort of thing. looked like it went to seed for sure, we could not really pinpoint where it used to be! But, you got that right about the Island. If you stand still long enough, they will build a house on you! Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 QUOTE But still Craig- you had a freaking GUN drawn to your head in your own house while possessing a LEGAL firearm!!!!! Doesn't that bother you a little?!?! Simple checking of firearms transfer records and - even the freaking barrel length(!) should have been resolved before any of this came to that point. Chris, Yeah, it bloody well scared the sh#t out of me... I'll never forget how cold that barrel was (guy must have been standing outside for a half hour in 20 degree weather) right behind my ear. I remember looking at the cylinder and trying to figure out what type of loads he had in that .357!!! But I was real young and green, and easily railroaded. When I think about it and start to get mad, I just think that it turned out okay that nobody got shot. I had a house full of guests at the time, informal party. My friend was behind the TV set adjusting the cable when an agent told him to "stand up with your hands in the air". He thought it was someone kidding around and said something to the effect of "eat sh*t". Then he saw the atuomatic leveled at him and wet his draws! ( He thought we were being robbed!) So, I just say" okay, nobody got hurt, and now I'm very, very wise and up to date on what, when and how they can come into your house. Just have to watch my terrorist dealings now ( Just KIDDING!!!) Man, That was the second time I've had an F*#ing pistol pointed at my head. Then there was a third after that in the late 80's in the Bronx... Sh*t I've been lucky! Thanks for the concern, Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_Joe Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 That reminds me of the story that was in the American Rifleman years ago (70's) about that guy in Maryland, I think, that was raided on the misinformation that he had live hand grenades in his home. They broke down his door that night, after the 8:00PM time frame of the warrant, and were in black hoods and shit and were yelling at him. His wife was coming out of the shower and was in her underwear and started screaming, he was in the shower and heard her screaming, he ran out and grabbed for a repo cap and ball CW pistol because he thought it was a home invasion (phrase not even invented then) and was shot in the head by an agent. They found only a few dummy nades, no fuses and some black powder but tore his home all to hell....they even took his tomahawk and chopped out the bullets they fired at him out of the walls. ( I think 15 shots were fired non his) The .357 bullet in his head fragmented and he survived but I'm not sure if he was ever "right" again. I have never heard the outcome of the litigation that followed but the ATF claimed that they did everything right..... I seem to remember his name was Belue...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Zamm, the Bathroom is a GREAT PLACE to hang that thing.......just a quick glance at it would immediately cause the bowels to loosen up!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif Great story and good (as best as one could expect) outcome! john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Crow Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Zamm, The other bad part about making waves is that they tend to come back, like in the form of IRS audits, or having the IRS mandate that you use a certified accountant for your taxes the next 12 years. Not kidding it is being done... It would have scared the sh&% out of me as well. Been held at gun point a few times and it ain't no fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Phil, Yup, That is kinda what my county friend was getting at. Don't mess with this private club, it's thier career vs you... When someone says "trust me" I usally run the other way http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Grew Crow, That my friend, is a very, very scary thought! As for guns pointed at ya, I now know what "weak in the knees" means http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif Hawkeye_Joe, God, that is scary! That's why I guess this kinda is okay with me in a way, when you hear stories like that. Okay, let's move onto happy things! This stuff is giving me the creeps again http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Thanks guys, Best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Hey Zamm, where you the one with the "Dinner guest picture" ?. I think it's time to show that one again.I got a crack out of that one. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Elbow, Yes indeed. There are a couple of versions of that one, called the "Italian Lunch". If I can find one of the others I'll post it. best, Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Zamm: That isn't a letter. It's a search warrant. I've written a few when I worked narcotics and that is absolutely the most poorly drafted warrant of any kind I've ever seen. I occasionally assist other agencies with warrants and I always look at them personally prior to executing a warrant. I would probably be very leery if an ATF agent asked me to run that thing with him, but if signed by a judge it is a legal document though the language is very questionable. What you experienced was some very bad police work. They had a search warrant so why did they run the under cover in. They probably didn't do any surveillance on you prior to the incident otherwise they would have taken you down as you came out the door on your way to work. This wasn't unusual in the time frame that you describe they were like a bunch of kids trying to play police and people got hurt. I'm betting that they only had 2 or 3 agents on the raid team that came through the door, kind of dangerous when your suspect has machine guns. The good news is, from what I have seen lately, they are more professional and better trained. They work with us when filing felon in possession charges. That is something they use to never do. So we filed what we could at the state level. From what I see on the streets the ATF is pursuing criminals now and they appear to be exercising more good judgment when dealing with us honest citizens. I'm sure some of the ATF guys are real nice people it's a shame that they have the job of enforcing many unconstutional laws. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamm Posted January 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Phil and rhlowe, Again, it all worked out okay, and I'm sure things are run a lot better today. They had me for about 3 weeks to a month, judging from first contact with the undercover agent to the raid call. There was 8 or 9 in the raid. Strange bunch, all very different. One in black BDU's, one looking Kojak, complete with trench coat, etc... no sign of the nifty blue windbreakers with ATF on the backs. But they were all very nice ( the undercover apologized and all that). Well, after the initial shock and awe that is http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif Z P.S. After Nick's little ditty about what we say here on the forum, may I say that I have only a SEMI automatic Thompson in all it's legal glory. And that I like ATF agents very much. No kidding. And I'm not in the least bit paranoid at all, uh huh... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/sad.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Baker Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 They should have sprung for pizza and beer and made it a party for all the trouble they caused. Sincere apologies aside, you should always give the customer a little extra something to ease any misgivings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Brother Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 That's nothing... BATF thinks a bootlace is a machinegun: (See batF-troop letter on this page for details....) http://www.1919a4.com/cgi-bin/noncgi/Forum...TML/003030.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Brother Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 I'll say bad judgement is the understatement of the year... Not only can they get me for having a machinegun if I'm wearing my boots, but they can get for two! And as for silencers, when are they going to start serial numbering and taxing the most effective silencer ever made? It works so good, it even works with revolvers... I'm talking about those dangerous "inanimate objects" called pillows, of course... The shoestring thing is a well-known trick from WWII, and was first done with the M1 Garand. I myself consider me a rifleman, first and foremost, and subscribe to the doctrine of "One shot, one kill." So I of course would never use a shoestring as a machinegun, because it's a waste of ammo and a waste of taxpayer money to actually be researching this... I can bump fire just about anything semi-auto anyway. So what now? Tattoo a number on my finger, charge $200 bucks, and be registered with the batF-Troop because my finger is a device which can be used to make a gun fire full auto? How many people have been murdered with a machinegun in the United States recently? Is all this BS really necessary? And more importantly, when are we gonna tell the Government that "Shall not be infringed" means exactly what it says??? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif Shouldn't we be fearing a Government that fears our tools? If the Government doesn't trust us, why should we trust them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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